Author Topic: Why it SHOULDN'T be illegal...  (Read 2867 times)

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44,552
  • I Am Inimical
Why it SHOULDN'T be illegal...
« on: May 16, 2006, 06:02:25 PM »
to waste one's coworkers...

Just got a call a few minutes ago from one of the developers with whom I work.

The document I've spent the better part of two working days on (with his assistance)?

Trash.

The section director pulled the wrong instance out of the development shell (I think that's the right wording for this crap), and none of his material is valid for this version.

This isn't the first time that this has happened.

We're supposed CMMI Level 2.75, or close enough to level 3 that this *expletive deleted*it should not be happening, yet it is.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,484
  • My prepositions are on/in
Why it SHOULDN'T be illegal...
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2006, 06:04:07 PM »
This thread belongs in THR.

Quote
What gun for terrified co-workers cowering in fear?
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44,552
  • I Am Inimical
Why it SHOULDN'T be illegal...
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2006, 06:06:54 PM »
Gun my ass.

Keyboard and mouse cord.

My own, new, martial art... Compufu.

"This thread belongs in THR."

Maybe. But I don't.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

garrettwc

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 870
  • Tell me what I want to know and the pain will stop
Why it SHOULDN'T be illegal...
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2006, 06:45:33 PM »
Quote
We're supposed CMMI Level 2.75, or close enough to level 3 that this *expletive deleted*it should not be happening, yet it is.
I've discovered after a few years of dealing with similar situations that things like that and ISO certification don't mean diddly. In fact, if your processes are screwed up, ISO doesn't even require that you fix them. Just that you document how you make your mistakes.

Marnoot

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,965
Why it SHOULDN'T be illegal...
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2006, 08:11:28 PM »
Quote
The section director pulled the wrong instance out of the development shell
I had a developer pull and compile the completely wrong code version out of Sourcesafe last week; which I then installed on a client agency's production system, assuming the developer had done everything correctly. Big mistake! Police agencies get angry quite quickly when their record systems are down. Things would be helped greatly if we had a QA department that was both sufficiently staffed and competent. As it is, we just assume every upgrade or update will be followed by a fevered flurry of emergency patches; we're rarely disappointed.

Winston Smith

  • friends
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 498
  • Cheaper than a locksmith
    • My Photography
Why it SHOULDN'T be illegal...
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2006, 08:38:46 PM »
Quote
"This thread belongs in THR."

Maybe. But I don't.
Haha yeah
Can I use this as my sig line?

But yeah, that sounds pretty lame. Wasted labor is a pet peeve of mine.
Jack
APS #22
I'm eighteen years old. I know everything and I'm invincible.
Right?

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44,552
  • I Am Inimical
Why it SHOULDN'T be illegal...
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2006, 08:58:53 PM »
"can I use this as my sig line?"

Be my guest.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Why it SHOULDN'T be illegal...
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2006, 03:54:47 AM »
Quote from: Mike Irwin
The section director pulled the wrong instance out of the development shell (I think that's the right wording for this crap), and none of his material is valid for this version.

This isn't the first time that this has happened.

We're supposed CMMI Level 2.75, or close enough to level 3 that this *expletive deleted*it should not be happening, yet it is.
Am I the only one who doesnt have a clue what any of this means??
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,237
  • I'm an Extremist!
Why it SHOULDN'T be illegal...
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2006, 04:30:51 AM »
Quote
Am I the only one who doesnt have a clue what any of this means??
No, but if it helps, today I'm running a NAD27-NAD83 NADCON on a GRS1980 oblate spheroid using an AI8.3  sub-command. It's on a -121.0000000 reference grid offset if that helps any.

Some days I'm a smartass. Tongue
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

garrettwc

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 870
  • Tell me what I want to know and the pain will stop
Why it SHOULDN'T be illegal...
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2006, 04:37:41 AM »
Quote
Am I the only one who doesnt have a clue what any of this means??
Yes. Cheesy

The first paragraph refers to pulling instructions and screen shots for the wrong version of whatever software Mike is writing a manual for. For example, If he was doing a manual on Windows XP, the director gave him instructions and screenshots from Windows 95.

The last paragraph refers to an industry certification. The higher your number the more "perfected" your processes are. However, as Mike and I pointed out, even "certified" firms have their share of nimrods on the floor.

BrokenPaw

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,674
  • Sedit qvi timvit ne non svccederet.
    • ShadowGrove Interpath Ministry
Why it SHOULDN'T be illegal...
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2006, 04:41:01 AM »
Rabbi:

CMM stands for "Capability Maturity Model", and it's the thalidomide-induced brainchild of a group called "SEI", which I can't remember what that stands for.  They saw a need to have a newer trendier way of showing that companies were Process-with-a-capital-P compliant, because ISO-900x just wasn't giving any money to SEI, it was giving it to the ISO people.

Nutshell:
CMM consists of five levels:

CMM Level 1 - Every company is already CMM 1, because there's nothing lower that you can be.  

CMM Level 2 - All of the company's projects have Processes.  Not the same Processes, mind you, just Processes.  This is not a Bad Thing; a development project ought to have some sort of codified way of proceeding, otherwise you get to the end of the project and realize that you've forgotten to allocate time for key things like testing or integration or documentation or something.

CMM Level 3 - All of the company's projects have the same Process.  This is bad.  Because not all projects lend themselves well to the same sorts of Processes.  To wit:  I work in (essentially) software R&D.  There's another group in my company that manufactures airframe parts out of carbon fiber composite.  The same Process does not work in both places.

CMM Level 4 - More time is spent figuring out what's wrong with the same Process that all projects are using than is actually spent on following the Process itself and getting any work done.  But no changes are made to the Process as a result of all of this mandated and documented bitching.

CMM Level 5 - The Process itself is under evolution based upon the bitching established in Level 4.  Which means that no work at all gets done on the projects themselves, because everyone is involved in changeng the Processes, and the Process documentation, and then bitching about why the new Process still sucks, and then altering the Process based upon this new bitching, ad infinitum.

Managers invariably think that if CMM 1 is bad, and CMM 2 would be better, then CMM 5+++++ would obviously be the best possible thing, and we must get there right now, notwithstanding the fact that SEI recommends an absolute minimum of one year per level, preferably two, and more the higher you go, to transition.

Also notwithstanding the fact that SEI themselves, the people who invented the damn system, were unable to make a CMM-5 manufacturing facility work, even though they built it from the ground up to be CMM-5.  Because all of the Process-refinement overhead made it completely and utterly impossible for anyone to get any work done, and so as soon as it went into production, it fell to CMM-4, and then eventually to CMM-3.

Oh, and like garrettwc says, if your documented Process says, "We dip all of our installation CDs in 10w-40 motor oil and then into road sand before shipping them to our customers", and you follow that Process to the letter, you can still announce that you're CMM-level-whatever compliant.

Ok.  Off my soapbox, now.  Sorry.

-BP, who's been involved in far too many CMM initiatives to ever not wince when the term comes up.
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

charby

  • Necromancer
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29,295
  • APS's Resident Sikh/Muslim
Why it SHOULDN'T be illegal...
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2006, 04:41:10 AM »
Among my collective group of computer geeks I work with, we have a saying for situations like that.

"That is the day I come to work with a bottle of Jack Daniels and a .45!"

I hate *expletive deleted*it like that when you're told one thing by some dumb ass supervisor that has no clue about the IT world, work your ass off to get it done in a timely manor only to find out that the client wanted something else.


-Charby
Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

Uranus is a gas giant.

Team 444: Member# 536

Harold Tuttle

  • Professor Chromedome
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,069
Why it SHOULDN'T be illegal...
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2006, 04:54:54 AM »
and here i thought Total Quality Management was too much self reflective navel gazing...

"Listen, this old system of yours could be on fire and I couldn't even turn on the kitchen tap without filling out a 27b/6... Bloody paperwork. "
"The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does not wear the "Hello, my name is.." badge!
He strikes from below like a viper or on high like a penny dropped from the tallest building around!
He only has one purpose--Do bad things to good people! Mit science! What good is science if no one gets hurt?!"

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,237
  • I'm an Extremist!
Why it SHOULDN'T be illegal...
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2006, 05:05:09 AM »
Quote
"That is the day I come to work with a bottle of Jack Daniels and a .45!"
I always heard it as, " A glass of whiskey, a gun, and two bullets." One would work just as well as the other though, I would think. Smiley
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44,552
  • I Am Inimical
Why it SHOULDN'T be illegal...
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2006, 05:17:53 AM »
CMM is obsolete. It's now officially replaced with CMMI, Capability Maturity Model Integrated. SEI is Carnegie Mellon's Software Engineering Institute.

"CMM Level 1 - Every company is already CMM 1, because there's nothing lower that you can be."

They haven't seen a couple of the places I've worked, obviously. One of the hallmarks of CMMI Level 1 is that it takes (per CM's own documents) individual heroics to make the program work. You know the type -- a Dilbert character who has worked several days in a row without sleep to meet a deadline.

Each successive step in the CMMI chain means that the organization is supposedly more and more capable of planning and executing software programs. One of the BIG benefits of CMMI is that it creates an institutional memory.

Anyone ever hear of a business or program that folds because one or two individuals leave and take institutional knowledge with them that can't be replaced? CMMI is a guard against that.

A lot of people poo poo CMMI, ISO and the other, smaller, process programs, mainly because they all include increasingly heavy burdens of document and record keeping.

Contrary to Broken Paw's assessment, CMMI's predecessors were developed at the behest of the Federal government, NOT because someone at Carnegie-Melon decided that the SEI would be a neat way of sucking in a lot more money, and NOT because ISO wasn't paying them.

At one time in the 1960s and 1970s upwards 70% of all money spent on software development programs was spent on failed programs because there were simply no standards, no institutional memory, no repeatability. Everything was heroics from front to back, and sometimes heros fail. The Feds wanted processes that would help prevent massive, expensive, failures.

The picture is MUCH different today. Even an organization that has CMMI lapses, such as the one I'm facing, is far more capable of executing a software program.

The data is there to support the overall efficacy of the CMMI process, but as with anything, the process is only as good as the people who are participating in it, and that's what I faced up against last night.

Yes, there are still some pretty spectacular program failures. Trilogy and Trailblazer come to mind. In part, those programs failed because of CMMI lapses on the part of the contractor, but they also failed because the government was unable or unwilling to provide clear, comprehensive, and consistent direction as to the goals of the program. Trilogy is a spectacular example of that. It was kind of funny, actually. The FBI gets up in front of congress and savages the main contractor (my employer) for failure to perform, and a short time later GAO issues a report that placed probably 90% of the blame not on my employer, but on FBI.

That said, program failures are now the exception to the rule, not the rule, and process definition, adherence, and improvement is largely the reason. It's also a major reason why the Federal government, more and more, is demanding, as part of its RFP process, that any organization that bids on Fed work be CMMI or other process method certified. No certification, no contract.

The refreshing part is that in an organization that isn't CMMI adherent, something like what happened last night could cause a cascade failure of part, or the entire, software delivery that we're working on now. I've seen it happen, and it's never pretty.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

BrokenPaw

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,674
  • Sedit qvi timvit ne non svccederet.
    • ShadowGrove Interpath Ministry
Why it SHOULDN'T be illegal...
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2006, 06:58:46 AM »
Quote
Contrary to Broken Paw's assessment, CMMI's predecessors were developed at the behest of the Federal government, NOT because someone at Carnegie-Melon decided that the SEI would be a neat way of sucking in a lot more money, and NOT because ISO wasn't paying them.
That part was supposed to come off as tongue-in-cheek; guess I need to go thump my Irony Generator and see if I can't get it running properly again.

The problem CMM (and now CMMI) suffers from is the same problem that a all major institutional religions suffer from:  Once something's been in place for long enough, people begin to forget why it's there, and they begin to worry more about the letter of the rules themselves than about the things the rules were meant to prevent.

We once had the CMMI-compliance guy involved in a meeting via conference call.  The meeting was scheduled to be a design review, but the design in question had been rendered obsolete because of a high-prioriy customer requirement that we'd only received that very morning.  So we (the 8 engineers in the room) were attempting to come up with a new design in order to accomodate the customer's requirement, and CMMIGuy informed us that this was supposed to be a Design Review, not a Technical Interchange Meeting, and so we couldn't discuss anything new; Process required us to review the design that had been e-mailed out the previous day (even though it was now no longer a valid design), and if we wanted to schedule a Technical Interchange Meeting to discuss these new requirements, well, we could do that once we found a time (probably next week) when all of the required engineers (the eight that were already in the room) were available again.

After a certain amount of staring at the speakerphone at an utter loss for words, we told him that we'd go ahead and do that, thanks, bye!  And hung up on him and proceeded to have our brainstorming session.

Failures:  He was more worried about the name of a meeting, because the name of the meeting was significant to the Process, than he was about meeting our customer's requirements.  He was more worried about the Process of making sure that all of the necessary people were available and giving them advance warning, than he was about the common-sense fact that all of the required people were already there and as such didn't need a week's worth of notice.

Once Process becomes Religion, it gains a lunatic fringe of fanatical adherents, and then it begins its inevitable decline in to ineffectiveness.

The intrinsic flaw in CMM/I is that it puts the cart before the horse; you first have to force your projects to adhere to a Process, and only then, after years of work, do you get to the parts where you pay attention to feedback from the people who are doing the work, to find out whether the Process makes sense in the first place.

-BP
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44,552
  • I Am Inimical
Why it SHOULDN'T be illegal...
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2006, 07:20:31 AM »
"Once something's been in place for long enough, people begin to forget why it's there, and they begin to worry more about the letter of the rules themselves than about the things the rules were meant to prevent."

That's why staff training has to be regularly conducted, but frequently isn't.

Case in point. I joined SAIC in 1998 just after the group I was working for earned CMM (at that time) 3 Level Certification.

Management immediately began to cut training budgets to the point of virtual elimination. I had NO frigging clue what role CMM played in the business processes in my group. At the same time we were experiencing a bunch of staff turnover. Again, no training.

Over the next 4 or so years I was able to absorb a lot of information about CMM/CMMI, what it did, and why it was important. On my own I became something of a convert to the concept, but with no formal training, there wasn't a lot I could do to put it in place.

Three years ago, when it came time to recompete the project I was on, the RFP required a RECENT assessment at level 3. So, the management, all smug and like, set up an assessment, SURE that we were going to be able hit level 4....

And we got absolutely phucking hammered by the assessment team. In a bunch of crucial areas we were barely level 2.

They had to dump a LOT of money, time, and effort into getting everyone up to speed on CMMI so that we could get our level 3 assessment.


"Once Process becomes Religion, it gains a lunatic fringe of fanatical adherents, and then it begins its inevitable decline in to ineffectiveness."

Is that really any differenet from the religious zealots who believe that the only way to do anything is seat of the pants last minute only heros need apply methodology?

No, it's not.

Just as you have people who get tied up in the mechanics of the process, you have people who are so resistant to change (because it's change) that they are the counter-corporate-culture example.

Of the two, however, by far the most productive, safest, and logical are those who are slaves to the process, for the reasons that I outlined in my message above.

If you find a process-culture wonk being an impediment to overall productivity, you can find ways to sideline the individual temporarily, or even replace him, and it's usually only a minor blip in the process, if at all.

If, however, you sideline the counter-culture individual, or remove him from the scenario altogether, you're often in a world of hurt simply because there's no established framework to fall back on.


"The intrinsic flaw in CMM/I is that it puts the cart before the horse; you first have to force your projects to adhere to a Process, and only then, after years of work, do you get to the parts where you pay attention to feedback from the people who are doing the work, to find out whether the Process makes sense in the first place."

I think that's an exceptionally narrow, and counter-cultureist view in many ways.

If you adhere to that view you accept, as a business standard, exceptionally high project risk and you also discount out of hand the importance of tailoring in the CMMI process.

CMMI does NOT require any project to "wait years" before receiving feedback/assessing if the emerging/established processes work. If that is the case, then I submit that the concept is not being applied correctly by the management.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

BrokenPaw

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,674
  • Sedit qvi timvit ne non svccederet.
    • ShadowGrove Interpath Ministry
Why it SHOULDN'T be illegal...
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2006, 07:48:05 AM »
Quote
CMMI does NOT require any project to "wait years" before receiving feedback/assessing if the emerging/established processes work. If that is the case, then I submit that the concept is not being applied correctly by the management.
Once the framework is in place, no, you're correct.  I was referring to the SEI-endorsed path through CMM/I levels, where they suggest that a company that's starting out from scratch (Level 1) should take some number of years to get to level 4, the level where the processes themselves are supposed to begin to generate feedback.  

Of course if a new project is started in an already-Level-4 organization, it'll not have the disadvantage of the ramp-up time.

I don't know that I'm counter-culture, per se.  I do know that I abhor change that is implemented for its own sake, rather than for a demonstrable reason.  I quickly get fed up with things that create more work for me without actual demonstrable benefit.  I believe that software projects need to have a process, but I don't believe, for instance, that they all ought to have the same process.  I believe that design reviews are a good thing, because they can catch missed requirements before code inertia sets in; but I don't believe that design reviews that are held purely as lip-service to having had design reviews are worthwhile, especially when they're held on designs that have already been coded and tested and integrated and fielded and have been working for a year or more.

So yeah, color me counter-culture, iconoclastic, the long-haired UNIX guy with all of the strange stuff in his office.  But when something works, I'm willing to adopt it; I've just never seen CMM/I solve more problems than it caused.  ::shrug::  YMMV.

-BP
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

  • Guest
Why it SHOULDN'T be illegal...
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2006, 11:07:17 AM »
I see both sides, but tend to be VERY quick to be the one to point and laugh and say "look! the Emperor has NO CLOTHES!"  Instead of snide derision, maybe a little more understanding on my part (yeah, more to the counter-culture, anti-bureaucracy side) and suggestions as to how to build real-world flexibility into the process would be more constructive.

I've always seen it as being EITHER process-oriented (total, anal wonk, e.g. bean counters) or RESULTS-oriented (the Enlightened Ones); I guess anytime you have more than 2 people working toward an objective, you need some level of process by which to maintain sanity in the work.  But it is CRAZY-MAKING to me when, like in BrokenPaw's anecdotal CMMI-guy story, the forest is obscured for the trees, in order to serve the process.

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44,552
  • I Am Inimical
Why it SHOULDN'T be illegal...
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2006, 11:36:59 AM »
"I do know that I abhor change that is implemented for its own sake, rather than for a demonstrable reason."

And I submit to you that the CMM/CMMI process has more than proven its worth in the delivery of successful, functional software products and in reduction of costs.

Did you see the figures I posted for how much development money was essentially thrown away on program failures in the 1960s and 1970s? SEVENTY percent of every dollar allocated to development projects. That's a STAGGERING amount of money on programs that never deliver a single line of useful code.

Today that number is under 15% and it's largely processes such as CMMI and its predecessors that are the reason for that.

Given the expodential increase in the number of systems being developed, their complexity, and their scope, were CMMI-style procedures abandoned wholesale today I really question whether there would ever be a successful program again.

Could you imagine Boeing attempting to design the next generation aircraft by beginning the process with scratch and without benefit of comprehensive processes that allow them to draw on the development work the company has done before?


"But it is CRAZY-MAKING to me when, like in BrokenPaw's anecdotal CMMI-guy story, the forest is obscured for the trees, in order to serve the process."

But is that any different from the crazy cowboy rebel who defies the in-place process system simply because he can, or he thinks it's unnecessary, etc?

Off the top of my head I can think of three major programs at my company that have been brought down by individuals working in just such a manner.

It's great to be a rebel.

Until your cowboying results in your doing a proverbial James Dean around a tree, and draging a $100 million project AND the jobs of 40 other people with you.

My company lost a major contract that way.

No, CMMI won't protect you totally from such fiascos (the group that lost that contract was appraised at level 3), but it can help mitigate the effects that such people have on the overall project. Hopefully.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.