Any railroad buffs or train-spotters here?

[HankB]

When I was very young, growing up on the SW side of Chicago, we lived half a block away from the GTW tracks; at that time, there were at least a dozen tracks grouped together, and some railroad yards were just a few blocks north. My Dad and I used to walk a little way down to the main railroad crossing in the evening and watch for a passenger train he called "The Canadian Express" . . . we liked to watch it making it's nightly run.

I remember the keen disappointment I felt when one day it came by pulled by a diesel.    I was too young to remember any details about the steam locomotive that had formerly pulled it - it must have been one of the very last steam engines in commercial service. But I enjoyed watching it.

We'd have an HO railroad that we used to run in a circle around the Christmas tree, but that was a seasonal thing . . . but when I got a little older, "we" built a permanent setup in the basement. At first it was on two 4x8 pieces of plywood, but later on it got expanded to three 4x8's in a "U" shape.

That led to the one real falling-out I had with my Dad - it was "our" model railroad, but it was going to be done HIS way - period. So I washed my hands of it and refused to have anything to do with it. So to "show me" the consequences, Dad threatened to tear it down - I told him to go ahead. And he did - but by then I didn't care.

Oddly enough, I still have all the stuff - track, trains, buildings, transformers, everything - packed away. I guess I should look through it and sell it on Ebay or something . . .

[230RN]

There's a cutaway drawing and pictures of a Deltic delta-formed 2-cycle opposed-piston diesel engine at

http://fastjeff57.tripod.com/

Scroll down or use page finder to "deltic."  This engine was used in both locomotives and marine work.  It was supposedly easy to maintain.

That site, called "My Longtime Romance with Engines by N. Jeffrey Perry--Motorhead for Life " is rife with fascinating engines, big, small, aircraft, automotive, marine and shows what is supposedly the biggest engine in the world.

Once, by the RR tracks behind my little farm I found a huge chunk of machined graphite which must have been one of the brushes for either the generator or the motor of a diesel electric locomotive.  I surmise that during a maintenance operation, someone parked it on the frame of the loco and it happened to fall out right there.  The chunk was obviously machined and shaped and was about 3" or 4" in two dimensions.  

On another branch track near the farm, I watched a diesel electric pulling a bunch of coal cars when it started up, and the wheels slipped on the track, just like the "torquey" steam locos, and when I looked later, you could see where the wheels had dug a slight concave in the tracks.  Must have been a new engineer or something.  I was about 150 yards away when the idling sound changed to a big roar and an enormous puff of black smoke came out of it while the wheels spun.

I was amazed.  I knew the torque on a steam engine was basically the same whether it was running or sitting there at zero RPM*, but I didn't realize that diesel electrics could generate that kind of torque on startup, too.  Made sense when I thought about it a while, since the torque curve on a parallel-wired electric motor is pretty flat up until the back-EMF approaches the applied EMF.  (Did I get that right? Or was that on a series-wound motor...?  It's been a long time since I dealt with that stuff.)

Terry, 230RN

*  You;ve seen that in movies, I'm sure, where the camera's on the wheels and the engineer applies steam, and suddenly the wheels spin and the train goes CHUFFCHUFFCHUFF...Chuff... Chuff... chuff and starts to move.  The chuff is the exhaust steam from each stroke blasting up the stack to increase the draught on the firebox.

Torque's basically the same whether it's moving or not?  Sure.  You put 250psi of steam on a 12" diameter piston, and the thrust on the connecting rod is 28,274.33 pounds at Top Dead Center whether the piston is moving away at that instant or not.  Changes through the rotational cycle, of course

[Perd Hapley]

If it ain't steam, it ain't squat.....................................chris3

I'm more interested in diesels, for some reason.

[230RN]

I suppose it's a matter of debate, but it strikes me that most of the history of railroading per se occured before the diesel, when they were still laying new tracks and it was becoming the dominant force in intracontinental shipping and passenger travel.  I believe they used small diesels in yard switchers before, say, the 1940s, and of course there were the gas-powered short-run semi-automobile locomotives, but diesels did not really appear as primary power until the mid-fifties (I think there were some diesel RR stuff going on during WWII, but that was pretty minor.)

Then, sometime in the 70s or so, they decided they didn't need cabooses anymore.  That, to me, was significant for some reason.

There's also a small but significant segment of history involving the social security act, where Railroad retirees were afforded special consideration --I believe that was before diesels, too.

I'm not against diesels or anything, but somehow it seems a lot of history was compressed in the steam age, and a lot less history occured after the diesel age.

But.  Whatever turns your wheels.

Terry, 230RN

[Perd Hapley]

I meant that diesel locos appeal to me more, as locos go. I didn't say the history of the steam era wasn't more interesting.

[French G.]

Heresy! But what else can we expect from someone who does not think bacon is the supreme meat.

[Viking]

I've spent a couple of night at the train station in the neighboring town. Occasionally, freight trains make a short stop there during the nights, for reasons unknown to me. I've always been tempted to sneak aboard one of the freight cars somehow, see how far I could travel...

[drewtam]

Caterpillar bought EMD from an equity company 1-2yrs ago. It was added to their Progress Rail subsidiary which already provided re-manufacturing for cars and locomotives and rail support services.

Hopefully they will be able to turn the company around and give GE a run for the market.

[Perd Hapley]

I believe they used small diesels in yard switchers before, say, the 1940s, and of course there were the gas-powered short-run semi-automobile locomotives, but diesels did not really appear as primary power until the mid-fifties (I think there were some diesel RR stuff going on during WWII, but that was pretty minor.)

I believe the mid-fifties was the era when steam power really started to disappear from the rails, but diesel locomotives were widespread long before that.

I'm kinda new to all this, myself, but I think diesel trains were a little more than minor even before WWII. The Burlington Zephyr (diesel-electric) entered service in 1934. That's according to Historical Atlas of the North American Railroad, by Derek Hayes. The Santa Fe Super Chief was diesel, and it began its run in 1936. The Atlas also reproduces an Electro-Motive ad from 1941, which points out that their diesel-electric locomotives had logged millions of miles on various major railroads prior to 1940, with availability rates well over 90%.

From what I've read, (mainly from a 2010 article in Railroad History) the diesel really became prominent during WWII, and locomotive manufacturers (Baldwin, Lima, American Locomotives) who couldn't compete with Electro-Motive's diesel locomotives suffered pretty serious setbacks after the war. Naval demand for diesel engines also pushed acceptance of the diesel, and locomotive firms made more naval engines than locomotives.


Steam's cool and everything, but...



Tell me that ain't sweet!

[French G.]

Weirdest train ride ever. I'm in northern Denmark, the plan is to ride the train all night, switch trains, be in Kiel Germany in the morning. Overnight train, should be quiet, already been travelling for 5 hours, nap time. Well, not so much. Apparently it was Carnival. About 500 college and high school youth descend upon the train, in costume. One was passed out under my seat, another perched on my armrest. The pirate wench who sat on my table was quite saucy and her skirt was almost there. Oh, and my wife was sitting next to me...

[wmenorr67]

Weirdest train ride ever. I'm in northern Denmark, the plan is to ride the train all night, switch trains, be in Kiel Germany in the morning. Overnight train, should be quiet, already been travelling for 5 hours, nap time. Well, not so much. Apparently it was Carnival. About 500 college and high school youth descend upon the train, in costume. One was passed out under my seat, another perched on my armrest. The pirate wench who sat on my table was quite saucy and her skirt was almost there. Oh, and my wife was sitting next to me...

Don't you just hate it when that happens.

[RevDisk]

Forgot, I live 10 minutes from the Railroad Museum of PA. Awesome place, highly recommended if you're in the area

http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/

The different engines they have: http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/about/roster/locomotiveroster.pdf

[Angel Eyes]

From what I've read, (mainly from a 2010 article in Railroad History) the diesel really became prominent during WWII, and locomotive manufacturers (Baldwin, Lima, American Locomotives) who couldn't compete with Electro-Motive's diesel locomotives suffered pretty serious setbacks after the war. Naval demand for diesel engines also pushed acceptance of the diesel, and locomotive firms made more naval engines than locomotives.

If anything, WWII gave steam locomotives a new lease on life as diesel engine manufacturers were tied up with orders for the war effort.  The government, through the War Production Board, decided which railroad got more locomotives and what kind.  Typically they stipulated steam power for the railroads unless there was a compelling reason to approve a diesel locomotive order.  Southern Pacific had made the decision to dieselize before the war, but had to hold off until after hostilities, keeping steam power on hand until 1958.

[MillCreek]

http://www.trainmuseum.org/

If you are up along the eastern suburbs of Seattle, there is an interesting train museum and restored depot in the small town of Snoqualmie. 

[rcnixon]

230RN, the Deltic was easy to maintain because the Napier factory forbade any maintenance on it except routine stuff like new sump oil and such.  The power units were replaced as a complete unit and then sent back to Napier for overhaul.  The Royal Navy used them in a small mine warfare class of ships and the US Navy used them in the "Nasty" class patrol boats.  The naval users developed the shops, tools and techniques to maintain the engines themselves.  A very complicated and typically british answer to the problem of a compact diesel engine.

Russ

[Perd Hapley]

If anything, WWII gave steam locomotives a new lease on life as diesel engine manufacturers were tied up with orders for the war effort.  The government, through the War Production Board, decided which railroad got more locomotives and what kind.  Typically they stipulated steam power for the railroads unless there was a compelling reason to approve a diesel locomotive order.  Southern Pacific had made the decision to dieselize before the war, but had to hold off until after hostilities, keeping steam power on hand until 1958.

That sounds right, too. You could also say that the war gave the railroads a new lease on life, altogether. The railroads were already in decline, and the war was a temporary reprieve, before the automobile and truck could finish gutting the railroad business.

Without a depression and a war intervening, one wonders if the railroads might have dieselized a decade earlier.

[Angel Eyes]

That sounds right, too. You could also say that the war gave the railroads a new lease on life, altogether. The railroads were already in decline, and the war was a temporary reprieve, before the automobile and truck could finish gutting the railroad business.

A big part of the post-WWII decline was losing customers to the airlines (most airports being at least partially funded with taxpayer $) and the Interstate highway system (also funded with taxpayer $ and viewed by some as a military necessity).  Railroads generally have to build their own infrastructure (track, signals, bridges, tunnels, yards)  and have to buy or lease the real estate).

Without a depression and a war intervening, one wonders if the railroads might have dieselized a decade earlier.

Undoubtedly they would have.  The diesels are much more efficient and less labor-intensive than steam, and as labor costs rose, steam just became too expensive.  This was especially true in the deserts where finding water for steam was difficult.

I am an admitted steam sentimentalist, but the hard truth is it's 19th century tech.

[freakazoid]

I've always thought that trains were pretty cool. Never got huge into them though. Back at the old home there was a track on the other side of our pasture and I would love waking up in the mornings before school and listening to the train. A few years ago I road a train all the way from Newton, KS to Chicago. Was pretty cool.

[stevelyn]

I've always been facinated with trains, especially the steam engines. I grew up in WV in an adjacent county from Cass, WV and rode the CSRR Heisler #6 when I was a kid. One of my uncles was a volunteer on it back in the day.

Here's a nice photo gallery with Heisler #6 along with some of the Shays operated by CSRR. As you go through the gallery you'll see some very good detail on the Shay drive system. They used them to pull log trains from the lumber camps on the steep terrain of deepest, darkest Appalachia.

http://www.pbase.com/savethewave/image/125389312

This is a fully functioning steam engine that just returned to Alaska earlier this month. It was returned with the stipulation that the ARR put it into operation within 7 years. The Alaska Railroad is shooting for next year. Looks like Unca Teeve is going on a road trip in 2013. 

http://www.ktuu.com/features/assignmentak/ktuu-historic-alaska-railroad-steam-locomotive-arrives-in-anchorage-20120105,0,3440534.story

[Perd Hapley]

A big part of the post-WWII decline was losing customers to the airlines (most airports being at least partially funded with taxpayer $) and the Interstate highway system (also funded with taxpayer $ and viewed by some as a military necessity).  Railroads generally have to build their own infrastructure (track, signals, bridges, tunnels, yards)  and have to buy or lease the real estate).

I think in the early days, it was fairly rare for a railroad to be built without government investment, if indeed any were built without it. Canals and turnpikes got government funds, too, I think.

With airlines, passenger service was not very profitable at first. It took air mail subsidies from Uncle Sam to make it worthwhile.

[Boomhauer]

Interestingly, according to the engineer, they drained the water from the boiler whenever they shut down completely because they could not use anti-freeze in the boiler water. 

On a related note, on the older diesel locomotives, particuarly EMDs IIRC, they had to use plain water in the cooling system because the seals would not tolerate antifreeze. Not a problem if the engine runs all the time like back in the day, but if it's going to be shut down in the winter it has to be drained and later refilled before startup...

[Perd Hapley]

Tangentially related, but in a book I read about Alaskan bush aviation, the author said plane engines sometimes had to be drained of oil. On extremely cold nights, the oil could freeze.

[Perd Hapley]

.

[Angel Eyes]

I think in the early days, it was fairly rare for a railroad to be built without government investment, if indeed any were built without it. Canals and turnpikes got government funds, too, I think.

Some railroads (most obvious examples being the Central Pacific and Union Pacific) got substantial subsidies from the Feds.  Others such as the Great Northern were privately funded.  Then there were certain sweetheart deals such as leasing land from the government for a paltry sum and/or generous tax breaks.  Those might also be considered subsidies, depending on how far one stretches the definition.

[Perd Hapley]

When I said "early days" I was thinking of pre-Civil War.