Constitutionality of life sentence without parole for juvenile killers

[MillCreek]

http://www.npr.org/2012/03/20/148538071/do-juvenile-killers-deserve-life-behind-bars?ft=1&f=1001

Interesting story on NPR as I drove into work this morning.  SCOTUS will be hearing two cases on if it is cruel and unusual punishment to sentence a 14 year old to mandatory life without parole for murder.  I would not be surprised if the Court finds that it is cruel and unusual punishment, especially in those cases where the sentence is mandatory and the circumstances of the case cannot be considered by the trial court or jury.

[MechAg94]

So we should just kill them?   

Why would the circumstances not be considered?  Is that some sort of 3 strikes and your out rule?  If they do call it cruel and unusual, I would hope they don't paint too broad a brush.

[roo_ster]

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

Were he to get out in 5 years, I doubt he'd invent a cure for cancer.

[longeyes]

A prodigy is a prodigy.  Why discriminate?

[zxcvbob]

1) Mandatory LWOP sentence for felony murder when the juvenile was not the triggerman is kind of harsh.  But leave it on the table as an option if it fits.

2) If he's really such a good boy, I'm sure the governor will pardon him in 10 years or so.  

[makattak]

1) Mandatory LWOP sentence for felony murder when the juvenile was not the triggerman is kind of harsh.  But leave it on the table as an option if it fits.

2) If he's really such a good boy, I'm sure the governor will pardon him in 10 years or so. 

There is a reason that mandatory sentences have been legislated: citizens no longer have faith in the machinations of the legal system.

Lawyers and judges ought to have picked up on that. Instead, many continue to try to evade the will of the people. Which, of course, creates further distrust and will lead to further legislation.

[Jamie B]

Even at 14, how is a death sentence or life considered to be cruel and unusual punishment for committing premeditated murder?

[wmenorr67]

Even at 14, how is a death sentence or life considered to be cruel and unusual punishment for committing premeditated murder?

It is cruel because taxpayers have to pay all of his expenses for the next 66 years if the punk lives to be 80.

[roo_ster]

There is a reason that mandatory sentences have been legislated: citizens no longer have faith in the machinations of the legal system.

Lawyers and judges ought to have picked up on that. Instead, many continue to try to evade the will of the people. Which, of course, creates further distrust and will lead to further legislation.

We have a winner.  Too many sociopaths (sawed off & full grown) let loose by softie judges & lawyers. 

Personally, I despise mandatory minimums & 3-strikes laws, but they became a necessity when our lawyer-critters started to side with the savages against decent folk.

And, despite despising them, the proof is in the pudding in that since we have locked up scum for longer terms, crime has gone way, way down.

[Jamie B]

It is cruel because taxpayers have to pay all of his expenses for the next 66 years if the punk lives to be 80.

So what is the maximum monetary value for cost incurred before they are killed?

[zxcvbob]

Even at 14, how is a death sentence or life considered to be cruel and unusual punishment for committing premeditated murder?

It's not.  But for tagging along clueless and your older brother or friend kills someone... there needs to be some discretion in sentencing there.

[wmenorr67]

It's not.  But for tagging along clueless and your older brother or friend kills someone... there needs to be some discretion in sentencing there.

That would depend on the cooperation that the clueless is willing to give.

So what is the maximum monetary value for cost incurred before they are killed?

If it would be a death penalty for an adult then it should be a death penalty for a juvenile that should've known better.  That or bring back hard labor and chain gangs.  Imagine the money that could be saved putting these people to work rebuilding our country.

[Viking]

I've thought of something...the immaturity seen amongst most teens and even young adults nowadays, which can supposedly be seen by scanning the brain, is this a result of the brain being moldable and the fact that most kids nowadays aren't expected to be responsible about much? Basically, are teens immature because society/their parents made them so by not expecting anything from them? From what I understand, 100-150 years ago, 15-year olds were considered as fully competent adults?

[Jamie B]

It's not.  But for tagging along clueless and your older brother or friend kills someone... there needs to be some discretion in sentencing there.

Ah, I see - I was unaware of this.

If it would be a death penalty for an adult then it should be a death penalty for a juvenile that should've known better.  That or bring back hard labor and chain gangs.  Imagine the money that could be saved putting these people to work rebuilding our country.

Agreed. The last number that I heard several years ago was roughly $60,000/year/inmate.

[Tallpine]

He's the only one to blame because Mama Tried 

[zxcvbob]

Gee, thanks.  Now I've got Merle Haggard running around in circles in my head.

[seeker_two]

So we should just kill them?   

Why not?....it would be kinder than 30+ years in prison....

[MicroBalrog]

Either-or, people.

Either you treat these individuals as fully responsible for their moral decisions (in which case you've got a whole lot of age limits to repeal. Get crackin'.) or they are not and they can't be punished as harshly.

[roo_ster]

Either-or, people.

Either you treat these individuals as fully responsible for their moral decisions (in which case you've got a whole lot of age limits to repeal. Get crackin'.) or they are not and they can't be punished as harshly.

In a logical world. 

[RevDisk]

If it would be a death penalty for an adult then it should be a death penalty for a juvenile that should've known better.  That or bring back hard labor and chain gangs.  Imagine the money that could be saved putting these people to work rebuilding our country.

Ah, you'd face the same problem the Army Corps of Engineers did. Unions and local business protectionism.

I still come across stuff in the middle of nowhere built by the Army CoE, and it tends to be standing 60, 80 years later with no to minimum maintenance. Ah, that's not as common with some other builders. Hence, you'd be VERY hard pressed to slip that past the local politicians.

[longeyes]

I've thought of something...the immaturity seen amongst most teens and even young adults nowadays, which can supposedly be seen by scanning the brain, is this a result of the brain being moldable and the fact that most kids nowadays aren't expected to be responsible about much? Basically, are teens immature because society/their parents made them so by not expecting anything from them? From what I understand, 100-150 years ago, 15-year olds were considered as fully competent adults?

The "teenager" is a modern invention, created by advertisers and marketing types to form their ideal customers: cash-heavy and not too sharp.

Somehow the fabled raging hormones of today's teenagers were just considered youthful passion to be dealt with--enjoyed or exploited--in earlier times.  As we know many people in history were living adult lives well before they reached what we consider "majority" today.

[Balog]

I've thought of something...the immaturity seen amongst most teens and even young adults nowadays, which can supposedly be seen by scanning the brain, is this a result of the brain being moldable and the fact that most kids nowadays aren't expected to be responsible about much? Basically, are teens immature because society/their parents made them so by not expecting anything from them? From what I understand, 100-150 years ago, 15-year olds were considered as fully competent adults?

Ayup. You spend your whole life being told you're only really responsible for being a productive human being sometime around age 25 and lots of folks will believe it and make that happen.

[MicroBalrog]

The "teenager" is a modern invention, created by advertisers and marketing types to form their ideal customers: cash-heavy and not too sharp.

Somehow the fabled raging hormones of today's teenagers were just considered youthful passion to be dealt with--enjoyed or exploited--in earlier times.  As we know many people in history were living adult lives well before they reached what we consider "majority" today.

The myth that adulthood only "really" onsets at 25, or alternatively redefining "adulthood" as "the way people behave at the age of 30" serves the statist extremely well:

1. Set the standard of maturity to something most young people don't do.
2. "See, these people are not acting the way we want them to. Clearly they're immature, so they must be controlled."

Example: "Lots of college students drink lots and party hard. Clearly they're not mature enough to carry firearms on campus."

If you read the biographies of the Founding Fathers, when they were 18 they acted in many ways how modern adolescents do at age 18 - and yet they were treated as adults.

[T.O.M.]

I have met kids 17, 18, 19 years old that I would trust with my life in many sitautions.  I have met 40 year olds not mature enough to trust with the well-being of my dog.  This is why age-based rules are unfair, but there is no workable way to do it otherwise,

[Balog]

I have met kids 17, 18, 19 years old that I would trust with my life in many sitautions.  I have met 40 year olds not mature enough to trust with the well-being of my dog.  This is why age-based rules are unfair, but there is no workable way to do it otherwise,

Aside from lowering the age limits. Doesn't theoretical manhood in Jewish customs start at 13? That being said, unless you have a culture willing to enforce that by consensus (which we sadly do not currently have) then you get .gov stepping in as we do now.