Author Topic: Why we don't like homeowners' associations  (Read 27439 times)

Fitz

  • Face-melter
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,254
  • Floyd Rose is my homeboy
    • My Book
Re: Why we don't like homeowners' associations
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2012, 10:56:04 AM »
Buying property where there's an HOA is not a requirement. If you do not like the terms of an HOA, don't buy property there.

Fitz

---------------
I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

Tuco

  • Fastest non-sequitur in the West.
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,136
  • If you miss you had better miss very well
Re: Why we don't like homeowners' associations
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2012, 11:02:46 AM »
Buying property where there's an HOA is not a requirement. If you do not like the terms of an HOA, don't buy property there.



Buying property where there's an HOA zoning law is not a requirement. If you do not like the terms of an HOA, zoning law don't buy property there.


Try replacing the words....
Not picking on you in particular, Mr Fitz, but I sense a double standard.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
OTOH, this is not worth getting riled about. 
It's just the internet.

It's not like someone just made a "new rule! new rule!" that you can't wash your boat or motorcycle in your driveway.
7-11 was a part time job.

AmbulanceDriver

  • Junior Rocketeer
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,944
Re: Why we don't like homeowners' associations
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2012, 11:03:48 AM »
If you're not in her HOA, she's a moron for bothering you.  

Yeah, she's one of those busybody types that just loves annoying the hell outta people.  What got me from "mildly annoyed" to "throw her *expletive deleted* in jail" was one incident involving my wife.  We had a couple of trees trimmed, and there were some significantly large rounds that had been stacked in the "easement" area between the sidewalk and our fence.  Before the tree guys had even finished, she was over bugging me about making sure the wood was gonna get cleaned up, sidewalk cleaned, etc.   This was on a Friday.  The guys were going to come back Saturday to finish.   Friday night she comes by and leaves a little passive-aggressive note on our door.  I was gone the weekend they were finishing up the trees, but Sunday night my wife and I picked up about half of the wood that had been (neatly) stacked along the easement area.  And then it started raining.   And proceeded to rain all week.  The only pieces left were maybe 6 18-24" rounds that were still neatly stacked.   I again had to be out of town the next weekend.  So while my wife is out cleaning up the front yard, Little Miss Nosy pulls up in her car, rolls down the window, and starts chewing out my wife.  Telling her "we can't leave that wood there, it's private property," yadayadayada.  My wife tries to explain to her that I have been out of town on the weekends and that it had been raining all week.  She wasn't interested, continued to yell at my wife.  Well, she's pissed now, and proceeds to roll these 80+lb rounds down the sidewalk, up the hill of our driveway, and onto our side yard, tweaking her back and knee in the process.

ETA: Yes, I understand her desire not to have stuff stacked in their area.  My beef wasn't so much with that as it was with how she spoke w/ my wife.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 11:18:07 AM by AmbulanceDriver »
Are you a cook, or a RIFLEMAN?  Find out at Appleseed!

http://www.appleseedinfo.org

"For some many people, attempting to process a logical line of thought brings up the blue screen of death." -Blakenzy

Fitz

  • Face-melter
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,254
  • Floyd Rose is my homeboy
    • My Book
Re: Why we don't like homeowners' associations
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2012, 11:04:36 AM »
Buying property where there's an HOA zoning law is not a requirement. If you do not like the terms of an HOA, zoning law don't buy property there.


Try replacing the words....
Not picking on you in particular, Mr Fitz, but I sense a double standard.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
OTOH, this is not worth getting riled about. 
It's just the internet.

It's not like someone just made a "new rule! new rule!" that you can't wash your boat or motorcycle in your driveway.

There are many more things in this country more egregious than HOAs.

What's the problem with zoning laws?
Fitz

---------------
I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
Re: Why we don't like homeowners' associations
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2012, 11:06:09 AM »
This is where I take exceptions...

I don't have much use for people telling others what to do with their property.
If you don't like someone else changing the scenery on the property next to you, the proper and correct way to 'preserve' your view is to buy the surrounding properties yourself.
HOA are simply the smallest unit of tyranny over property rights.
Luckily, most people have some choice as to whether they live in them or not.


 ;/

Like has been stated, don't like the HOA rules? Don't buy in an HOA.  It ain't rocket science.
Don't care what the properties around you look like? Don't buy in an HOA.
Want to grow your dandelions 2' tall and put your camero on blocks in the driveway? Don't buy in an HOA.


And some of ya'll need redefinition of your idea of "property rights" and "tyranny".  
An HOA doesn't just swoop in and steal away your property rights.
The developer owns the property.  Deed restrictions go in place on the property.  Then, the developer sells the property with deed restrictions.  You agree to the restrictions, thus voluntarily giving up some of your property rights to the HOA.  
Therefore, CHOOSING to purchasing in an HOA is an exercise in property rights.  Tyranny my ass.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Why we don't like homeowners' associations
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2012, 11:09:14 AM »
Can you leave an HOA in some way?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
Re: Why we don't like homeowners' associations
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2012, 11:10:05 AM »
Can you leave an HOA in some way?

Sell.  Purchase outside of the HOA.  There are beautiful little non HOA homes in the county less than 10 minutes from here.  On larger lots.  Wouldn't hesitate to move to that area but we love our culdesac.
In most of America, counties and cities have some form of zoning on houses already.  This can range from pretty benign to as or more restrictive than the average HOA.  And unlike an HOA, fat chance getting zoning laws repealed.

HOA's are deed restricted neighborhoods.  I'd imagine in the current housing recession there are probably HOA's that have dissolved.
Even found a nifty article on disolving an HOA
http://real-estate.lawyers.com/homeowners-association-law/Dissolution-of-Your-Homeowners-Association-HOA.html
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 11:16:31 AM by Jamisjockey »
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Fitz

  • Face-melter
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,254
  • Floyd Rose is my homeboy
    • My Book
Re: Why we don't like homeowners' associations
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2012, 11:12:34 AM »
I laugh at the idea of a freely-entered business arrangement being called "tyranny"

Fitz

---------------
I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

AmbulanceDriver

  • Junior Rocketeer
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,944
Re: Why we don't like homeowners' associations
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2012, 11:14:46 AM »
;/

Like has been stated, don't like the HOA rules? Don't buy in an HOA.  It ain't rocket science.
Don't care what the properties around you look like? Don't buy in an HOA.
Want to grow your dandelions 2' tall and put your camero on blocks in the driveway? Don't buy in an HOA.


And some of ya'll need redefinition of your idea of "property rights" and "tyranny".  
An HOA doesn't just swoop in and steal away your property rights.
The developer owns the property.  Deed restrictions go in place on the property.  Then, the developer sells the property with deed restrictions.  You agree to the restrictions, thus voluntarily giving up some of your property rights to the HOA.  
Therefore, CHOOSING to purchasing in an HOA is an exercise in property rights.  Tyranny my *expletive deleted*.


As much as I don't like HOA's, I gotta agree w/ Jamis here.  Personally I wouldn't choose to buy in an HOA.  But I know that if my neighbor sells his house to some idiot who decides to let his weeds grow 3 feet tall and park a junker in their front yard, I don't have a whole lot of recourse.  But I also don't have to deal with some idiot with a ruler checking to make sure my grass is no more than 3.25" tall.  But I am fairly fortunate that I do have pretty good neighbors, at least right now.  We all keep our yards clean, maintained, and no one gripes at you if you change your oil in your driveway.
Are you a cook, or a RIFLEMAN?  Find out at Appleseed!

http://www.appleseedinfo.org

"For some many people, attempting to process a logical line of thought brings up the blue screen of death." -Blakenzy

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
Re: Why we don't like homeowners' associations
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2012, 11:17:04 AM »
I laugh at the idea of a freely-entered business arrangement being called "tyranny"



QFT.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: Why we don't like homeowners' associations
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2012, 11:19:12 AM »
Quote
I laugh at the idea of a freely-entered business arrangement being called "tyranny"

So giving up rights in exchange for protections isn't a small form of tyranny?
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

AmbulanceDriver

  • Junior Rocketeer
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,944
Re: Why we don't like homeowners' associations
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2012, 11:22:51 AM »
So giving up rights in exchange for protections isn't a small form of tyranny?


Not when you willingly choose to give up those rights.  If they were being taken from you by force, then yeah, tyranny, torches, pitchforks, blahblahblah.  It isn't tyranny if I willingly choose to place myself under a certain set of rules in exchange for knowing that everyone else around me will also be held to those same rules.  No more than it's tyranny if you join a range and one of their posted rules that you were aware of prior to joining is "when people are downrange changing targets, no one may handle firearms."  That rule does not take away your Second Amendment rights.  Even though I'm temporarily "giving up the right" to coon-finger my bang-stick in order to have a "protection" that some jackwagon isn't gonna put a round downrange when I'm changing targets.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 11:26:52 AM by AmbulanceDriver »
Are you a cook, or a RIFLEMAN?  Find out at Appleseed!

http://www.appleseedinfo.org

"For some many people, attempting to process a logical line of thought brings up the blue screen of death." -Blakenzy

charby

  • Necromancer
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29,295
  • APS's Resident Sikh/Muslim
Re: Why we don't like homeowners' associations
« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2012, 11:23:03 AM »
Can you leave an HOA in some way?

No, only if you are willing to move.

Like it has been said a lot, you choose to live to live there in the 1st place. HOA is usually created with new property, not existing property that was not under a HOA in the past.

Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

Uranus is a gas giant.

Team 444: Member# 536

Fitz

  • Face-melter
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,254
  • Floyd Rose is my homeboy
    • My Book
Re: Why we don't like homeowners' associations
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2012, 11:23:15 AM »
I think moderation on forums is tyranny
Fitz

---------------
I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

Fitz

  • Face-melter
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,254
  • Floyd Rose is my homeboy
    • My Book
Re: Why we don't like homeowners' associations
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2012, 11:24:46 AM »
So giving up rights in exchange for protections isn't a small form of tyranny?


Willingly giving up certain rights for any reason, if it's willing, is not tyranny.

It'd be like me complaining about my lack of rights as a member of the military after having enlisted of my own free will.
Fitz

---------------
I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
Re: Why we don't like homeowners' associations
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2012, 11:25:51 AM »
So giving up rights in exchange for protections isn't a small form of tyranny?


What rights are given up when you freely choose to enter a contract on how to use your property?  All the cards are on the table before you accept ownership of the property.

You give more rights up involuntarily through zoning laws.  Try popping in a swimming pool without permits even in a non-HOA neighborhood and see how that goes.  Good luck getting the city or county to rescind zoning laws.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Why we don't like homeowners' associations
« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2012, 11:36:19 AM »
It does seem rather non-sensible that you cannot pull your property out under any arrangements.

Of course, the question does arise:

Assume that Jamis  is correct - as I am willing to admit - that an HOA is not a state institution, as it is entered willingly.

What is the difference, morally rather than legally between the HOA and the lowest levels of the state (local and county authorities)?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

SADShooter

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,242
Re: Why we don't like homeowners' associations
« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2012, 11:37:38 AM »
A voluntarily entered contract.
"Ah, is there any wine so sweet and intoxicating as the tears of a hippie?"-Tamara, View From the Porch

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Why we don't like homeowners' associations
« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2012, 11:37:53 AM »
What is this "zoning" thing that you speak of ?   :P
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Fitz

  • Face-melter
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,254
  • Floyd Rose is my homeboy
    • My Book
Re: Why we don't like homeowners' associations
« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2012, 11:38:12 AM »
It does seem rather non-sensible that you cannot pull your property out under any arrangements.

Of course, the question does arise:

Assume that Jamis  is correct - as I am willing to admit - that an HOA is not a state institution, as it is entered willingly.

What is the difference, morally rather than legally between the HOA and the lowest levels of the state (local and county authorities)?

Morally, depends on the HOA i guess. Some are not bad at all. I'm happy with mine.
Fitz

---------------
I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Why we don't like homeowners' associations
« Reply #45 on: May 03, 2012, 11:40:17 AM »
A voluntarily entered contract.

But then, won't a statist argue you agreed to the town's rules when you moved in? And ad nauseam?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Fitz

  • Face-melter
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,254
  • Floyd Rose is my homeboy
    • My Book
Re: Why we don't like homeowners' associations
« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2012, 11:41:02 AM »
Perhaps, and to a certain extent, that's right.
Fitz

---------------
I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,078
Re: Why we don't like homeowners' associations
« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2012, 11:46:08 AM »
It does seem rather non-sensible that you cannot pull your property out under any arrangements.

Of course, the question does arise:

Assume that Jamis  is correct - as I am willing to admit - that an HOA is not a state institution, as it is entered willingly.

What is the difference, morally rather than legally between the HOA and the lowest levels of the state (local and county authorities)?

The HOA was consived and put in place by the property owner.  Joe Developer bought a chunk of property, did stuff to it to make it worth more money, and then decided to sell it in a bunch of little pieces with the stipulation that the new owners don't do certain things. The developer is exercising his property rights in that respect.  Or if you prefer the new owners didn't actually purchase all the rights to the property.  They left some of those rights with the prvious owner.

Zoneing laws are imposed by the state (Locality, fed, whatever) on exsisting private property.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Why we don't like homeowners' associations
« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2012, 11:48:12 AM »
What are the major benefits of this in practice other than keeping your home value up?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Fitz

  • Face-melter
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,254
  • Floyd Rose is my homeboy
    • My Book
Re: Why we don't like homeowners' associations
« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2012, 11:51:05 AM »
What are the major benefits of this in practice other than keeping your home value up?

In my neighborhood, it also gives us recourse (via complaints which lead to fines) when neighbors are up in the middle of the night causing a raucous while my daughter is trying to sleep, keeps a billion cars from parking on the street in front of my house, provides common areas and maintenance such as the pool, several fishing ponds, and parks.
Fitz

---------------
I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog