Why we don't like homeowners' associations

[Hawkmoon]

Summary: Army veteran erects swing set in "his" yard for his kids, homeowners' association sues.

http://houston.cbslocal.com/2012/05/02/homeowners-association-sues-returning-army-vet-over-backyard-swing-set/

At issue: The veteran and his wife say they obtained approval, the association says they did not. The bigger issue to ME is how idiotic it is to live in any neighborhood where my neighbors can tell me what kind of a swing set I can put up for my kids. Several years ago my wife and I visited a cousin in Prescott, AZ, and our hosts drove us around and showed us all the "in" subdivisions. They were all controlled by HOAs, and my cousin professed to not understand why I wasn't even a little interested.

However, it was duly noted that his own house was well outside of town and was not part of an HOA.

[De Selby]

When I retire, instead of buying a on RV and traveling, I'm going to buy in HOA after HOA litigating against them as a hobby.

[just Warren]

In The Voluntary City Alex Taborrok makes the point that HOA members are working under a set of incentives that causes this behavior and that it is rational for them to behave this way. He contrasts this with management of wholly owned properties such as shopping malls and apartment complexes.

The reasoning is that in an HOA since all of the members own their own property and are subject to the same rules as everyone else and that failure to adhere to these rules will cause, over time, a loss of property value the owners must be as strict as they are because they don't want the value to fall. However they don't lose anything if someone packs up and leaves provided that it's not so many people that it turns in to a ghost burb.

On the other hand the managers of a wholly owned property will start feeling the impact of lost rents right away if they act in such an unbending and confrontational way. They have to keep their customers happy whereas the HOA members only have to keep themselves happy.

[Fitz]

I'm very lucky. Our POA is very reasonable.

They complained at us once about our mailbox. They want a dark color (brown or black) and we put up a white one. No biggie. Other than that, they've been great. They check recreation tags at the fishin ponds, pool, and parks, so we know that non-residents aren't using the stuff. They don't waste dues on dumb stuff. Our dues are less than 600/year.

[Jamisjockey]

[tonto voice]Who's "we", white-man?
[/tonto voice]

If they got permission, did they get it in writing?
And what does his status as a Veteran have to do with the swingset?

When you live on a postage stamp, its nice to not have to worry about your neighbors letting thier place go to *expletive deleted*it.  Watched it happen in my neighborhood in Virginia and didn't like it one bit.  Used to argue with my neighbor because he'd let the grass on his side of the 4' fence grow taller than the fence.
HOA's are actually the epitome of freedom.  You read and agree to a and sign a contract between you and the association before you move into a development.  A contract between consenting entities. 
Call me idiotic all you want. I'll keep my HOA managed suburb, thank you very much.

[wmenorr67]

Don't live in a HOA and there are times that I wish I did.  The one thing I hear from most people that complain about HOA's is that the annual fees are usually overpriced.

[Jamisjockey]

Don't live in a HOA and there are times that I wish I did.  The one thing I hear from most people that complain about HOA's is that the annual fees are usually overpriced.

Its a steal in our hood.  Lots of greenspace, and lots of landscaping. 3 pools, tennis courts, basketball courts.  2 large playgrounds and 3 smaller ones.  All has to be mowed and upkept.

 

[Rick Finsta]

I would never move into one of "those places."  In my town, everybody keeps everything looking okay, and we all roll our eyes at the douchebags that cut their grass three times per week while we sit in our driveways or on our porches and drink mojitos or beer.  Nobody cares if a guy tunes his loud car or bike in the driveway so long as the hours are reasonable, and outdoor parties are held to the same standard.  If I put up a fabricated metal "mailbox from Mordor" with spikes on it, I'd get compliments, not complaints.

You guys can keep your extra layer of oversight, extra taxes, and petty tyrants-for-hire, and I'll keep my dandelions, mojitos, and race car.

[Jamisjockey]

Well now that you put it that way....  

And I roll my eyes at the white trash with cars on their yard and 12" tall dandelions. Oh, wait...you can't do that in my neighborhood. 

[charby]

You can choose to live in a HOA neighborhood or not, no one held a gun to your head when you bought the house.

My parents live in a HOA and they didn't like a couple of the minor rules so they got on the board and got them changed. They picked this neighborhood because they didn't want to see cars in yards, couches on front porches and unkept lawns.

[Kingcreek]

My widowed mother moved into a HOA property and some of the rules are just plain ridiculous. I wouldn't last a week there. If shooting starlings from the porch in my underwear didn't get me kicked out, skinning a deer in the back yard would.

[brimic]

I live in a HOA, but I was pretty much in my house from the beginning of it.
Whenever there are new rules proposed for an annual meeting, there is a cabal of us who show up and mix things up procedurally so that it never has a chance to get passed.
 

[dogmush]

I have mixed feelings on this.

On one hand, It's my property damn it and I should be able to do what I please!!

On the other, Mrs Mush and I are house shopping, and there have been several nice big houses on good sized lots that we passed right on by becasue the 'hood was crappy.  I'm talking overgrown trailers and rusty camaro's on blocks crappy.  Those sellers are getting hosed by their neighbors lack of care.

So I can see the appeal of an HOA.  Personally, I think it would come down to what, exactly, the deed restrictions/HOA rules were.  The couple of houses we looked at in HOA's we asked to see the regs before we (didn't as it turns out) put an offer in.  But there were a couple I would have been willing to live with if the house/price had been right.  As with so many things in life, I think HOA's boil down to read the fine print before you sign, and then stay involved to make sure Suzy Stay-at-Home Mom doesn't go crazy at the meetings.

[mtnbkr]

FWIW, at least in VA...

You have the right to request and study the covenants for an HOA before buying a house.  If you have a contract to buy, but haven't closed yet, and find something objectionable in the covenants, you can use that to exit the contract.  A buyer has plenty of opportunity to get the full story on their HOA before buying a house controlled by one.

I'm with Dogmush regarding them.  I don't like them on principle, but have seen neighborhoods with and without them.  If you want to live like a redneck, drinking beers in your underwear on the front porch while shootin' guns, then a neighborhood with an HOA isn't the place for you (to be honest, I'd like to live where that would be ok, but it isn't likely in NoVA). 

Being involved in yours helps a lot.  More than once I've wanted to do something that wasn't quite permitted by my HOA.  By making my case to the covenants committee, I've been granted waivers every time.  The rules might say one thing, but if you have a legitimate and reasonable need to bend the rules, you can normally make it happen. 

Chris

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

its the changeability of the rules that can suck.  as well as them serving as hosts for petty tyrants in some cases

an hoa would go into convulsions over me.   i have a neighbor who tries to bluff folks into thinking there is an hoa here

[AmbulanceDriver]

Personally, I don't like HOA's, but that's because I've had a bad taste left in my mouth by a couple of them.  First was an apartment I rented, at the time I rented it wasn't disclosed to me that it was actually a "condo conversion" and each unit was independently owned, etc....  And oh, by the way, here's a copy of the HOA rules....  Which applied to me but I had no input upon.  And yes, they were significantly more strict than the lease agreement/terms.  Some bordering on the ridiculous (couldn't have your back porch light on after midnight/before 5am because it *might* disturb your neighbor across the breezeway - never mind that there are these magical devices known as curtains!).

And our current situation - we bought a house about 3 years ago.  It is not in an HOA.  However, we are bordered on two sides by properties that *are* in an HOA.  A house behind us, and the entrance to the subidivision (a road/sidewalk and slight easement) on one side.  And yes, we've had a couple of visits from the "president of the HOA" who has taken it upon herself to start giving us crap.  And it's over petty BS.  The fencing contractor that built the fence for the subdivision between our property and the easement didn't build it right, and the cedar posts are all rotting out.  There was one segment that blew over in the wind, and laid there for several weeks before they had it repaired.  And a month later, another segment blew over.  She thought the tree service we'd hired to trim a couple of trees had knocked it over, and was all bent out of shape about "us repairing their fence".  Until I pointed out that it had blown over in the last windstorm a couple months prior, because the person who built the fence didn't build it right.  And I showed her the rotting fence post.  She was not happy about being shown that.  There have been a couple of other minor things much along the same vein that she has tried to blame us for.  And again, got even more pissy when I pointed out to her the problem was theirs, not ours.  The last straw was when she came over and tried to b**** at me about the pork shoulder I smoked a couple-three months back.  Apparently, running a smoker for 12 hours is some kind of violation of their rules.  I laughed.  Frankly though, I'm at the point that if she tries anything else, I'm gonna tell her two things.  One, she can take her HOA rules, fold them until they're all corners, and stick them where the sun don't shine.  And two, if she so much as sets foot on our property again, we will have her trespassed.  Then, if she does it again, I will have the absolute joy of getting her butt arrested.

Can you tell she's pissed me off?

[Jamisjockey]

If you're not in her HOA, she's a moron for bothering you. 

[cordex]

its the changeability of the rules that can suck.

Yeah, but that can work both ways.  We live in an HOA whose bylaws require some preposterous percentage of owners to agree to any changes to rules (something like 80% if I remember correctly).  You can't even get 20% of folks to show up to an HOA meeting, much less get any significant percent to agree on anything.  That's fine if the rules are cool, but where they don't make sense you're stuck with them.

[Rick Finsta]

Do you know me?  Perhaps I'm a *let's not go there*, or a spic, with dandelions in my yard.  Or is that not what you meant?  Don't answer, because the only answer is to call me a troll or tell me I'm misrepresenting your statement, niether of which is true.  Just think on it.

I frankly don't care if a bunch of pretentious bigots want to freely contract with each other and live in a community together with rules of their own making.  Have at it.  However, when you look down on those of us who found a place to live which was within our means and where everyone takes generally good care of their property, but sometimes someone just doesn't have the extra cash laying around for those weed treatments and landscaping services, or maybe doesn't have time this week to keep the grass under 3.5" tall, don't be surprised if we're a bit indignant.

[41magsnub]

I like my HOA.  Very minimal rules.  I can sum them up as such:

Dogs & Cats either on a leash or in a fenced yard - folks tend to ignore that one regarding cats but the HOA is now lending out live traps to residents to help enforce it  
No parking in the alley or in yards
Keep the noise down after 10PM
Mow your yard occasionally, generally stay on top of the weeds.  Nobody is running around with a ruler checking, just make an effort.
Have at least 2 trees involved in your landscaping
Keep your house in general good repair

Dues are $40 per quarter and cover snow removal on the sidewalks, upkeep on the common areas and the boulevard trees.

I've gone to the HOA board twice and they backed me up.  Once with a college student next door neighbor that was throwing loud parties several times a week.  They helped me look up the actual owner of the house (parents), and we sent off the multiple noise complaints from multiple neighbors to the parents in Alaska.  The parties stopped.  

The second time was with a neighbor that even after I nicely asked would not stop parking his giant truck in the alley directly behind my driveway.  These are not wide alleys and was interfering with my ability to get in and out.  I don't know exactly what was said, but they quit doing it after the HOA talked to them.

[Fitz]

Do you know me?  Perhaps I'm a *let's not go there*, or a spic, with dandelions in my yard.  Or is that not what you meant?  Don't answer, because the only answer is to call me a troll or tell me I'm misrepresenting your statement, niether of which is true.  Just think on it.

I frankly don't care if a bunch of pretentious bigots want to freely contract with each other and live in a community together with rules of their own making.  Have at it.  However, when you look down on those of us who found a place to live which was within our means and where everyone takes generally good care of their property, but sometimes someone just doesn't have the extra cash laying around for those weed treatments and landscaping services, or maybe doesn't have time this week to keep the grass under 3.5" tall, don't be surprised if we're a bit indignant.

LOL.

Who the hell is this guy?


A+ post. Would read again!

[Jamisjockey]

Do you know me?  Perhaps I'm a *let's not go there*, or a spic, with dandelions in my yard.  Or is that not what you meant?  Don't answer, because the only answer is to call me a troll or tell me I'm misrepresenting your statement, niether of which is true.  Just think on it.

I frankly don't care if a bunch of pretentious bigots want to freely contract with each other and live in a community together with rules of their own making.  Have at it.  However, when you look down on those of us who found a place to live which was within our means and where everyone takes generally good care of their property, but sometimes someone just doesn't have the extra cash laying around for those weed treatments and landscaping services, or maybe doesn't have time this week to keep the grass under 3.5" tall, don't be surprised if we're a bit indignant.

Bothered by turnabout much?  You're allowed to be an insulting prick, but nobody else is, right?  
Because you all but called me a *expletive deleted* for not wanting my neighbors yards to look like crap.
And now the "pretentious bigot" card.  Double  
You can choose not to live in an HOA.  That's your perogative. Go look down your nose at someone else, *expletive deleted*. 
You're calling me a "pretentious bigot" while looking down your nose at my lifestyle is hypocritcal.  Yeah, you're a hypocrite.

[Tuco]

Well now that you put it that way....  

And I roll my eyes at the white trash with cars on their yard and 12" tall dandelions. Oh, wait...you can't do that in my neighborhood. 

jammy, with the race card, for the win. 
Awaiting thread lockdown.

[brimic]

Because you all but called me a *expletive deleted* for not wanting my neighbors yards to look like crap.

This is where I take exceptions...

I don't have much use for people telling others what to do with their property.
If you don't like someone else changing the scenery on the property next to you, the proper and correct way to 'preserve' your view is to buy the surrounding properties yourself.
HOA are simply the smallest unit of tyranny over property rights.
Luckily, most people have some choice as to whether they live in them or not.

[dogmush]

We seem to be slipping on the "Polite" portion of our name.

Perhaps we need a FOA to help enforce the rules?