Author Topic: editorial about teachers unions  (Read 11637 times)

makattak

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Re: editorial about teachers unions
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2012, 12:15:23 PM »
And my point is that the datasets where heritable traits are the same and cultural influences are different directly contradict your point. You're attempting to cherry pick "data" from an already cherry picked data set.

I'm not saying there are no heritable traits that affect physical and even mental average abilities. I'm merely pointing out that 1. Environmental and cultural factors are as large or larger than strictly heritable ones 2. If you're going to try to cite data, you must at least pay a token effort to control for the variables.

Which would be why I have referenced the data on twins and adopted children in this very thread.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

longeyes

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Re: editorial about teachers unions
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2012, 12:59:55 PM »
Liberalism, but not liberty, depends on perpetuating wishful thinking that the Left believes conduces to social harmony.  Unfortunately, the wishful thinking leads not only to stagnation but to the worst kind of disharmony.  As we are seeing more every day.  We will get nowhere advancing the same fantasies no matter how well-meaningly.  Indeed, we have bet our entire culture on misguided ideas and destroyed trillions in capital trying to prove their validity.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 02:46:55 PM by longeyes »
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Balog

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Re: editorial about teachers unions
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2012, 01:19:02 PM »
.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 01:24:41 PM by Balog »
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I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

roo_ster

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Re: editorial about teachers unions
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2012, 03:07:09 PM »
And my point is that the datasets where heritable traits are the same and cultural influences are different directly contradict your point. You're attempting to cherry pick "data" from an already cherry picked data set.

I'm not saying there are no heritable traits that affect physical and even mental average abilities. I'm merely pointing out that 1. Environmental and cultural factors are as large or larger than strictly heritable ones 2. If you're going to try to cite data, you must at least pay a token effort to control for the variables.

Point #1 is not correct, given the science that has been unearthed by geneticists, psychometricians, and the like the last few decades.  The blank slate or nurture-majority position has steadily been undermined by the data.  It is as much wishful rainbow-and-clouds thinking as the belief that we can turn middle eastern cesspool countries into decent republics or parliamentary democracies (and make this year's Yearbook the BEST YEARBOOK EVER!).

OTOH, you do have the religious-like fervor of the progressives and other types who really, really want to believe in the plasticity of human nature at the micro & macro levels.  The co-discoverer of DNA lost the nature/nurture argument in the political arena back in 2007.  He could only put decades of research, a scintillating intellect, and a respect for data on the "nature" side of the argument, whereas the other side countered with "STFU, old man!" 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_D._Watson

One of the small-c conservative virtues is to look at things how they are.  Only then can one begin to find one's way forward.  All this hippy-dippy wishful thinking is not conservative and it is not helpful to finding solutions to problems that may be soluble.
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Balog

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Re: editorial about teachers unions
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2012, 03:10:59 PM »
I'd love to see that data which conclusively disproves point 1. Especially given the BS non-scientific nature of sociology.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

brimic

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Re: editorial about teachers unions
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2012, 03:35:40 PM »
Quote
One of the small-c conservative virtues is to look at things how they are.  Only then can one begin to find one's way forward.  All this hippy-dippy wishful thinking is not conservative and it is not helpful to finding solutions to problems that may be soluble.

So what you are saying is that a person succeeds or doesn't succeed based on their genetic makeup and not on merits of their own hard work or preparation? The converse would be to say that some don't succeed because of 'bad luck' of getting poor genetic traits.
Sounds like liberal BS to me....
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roo_ster

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Re: editorial about teachers unions
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2012, 04:00:36 PM »
So what you are saying is that a person succeeds or doesn't succeed based on their genetic makeup and not on merits of their own hard work or preparation? The converse would be to say that some don't succeed because of 'bad luck' of getting poor genetic traits.
Sounds like liberal BS to me....

I would suggest reading my post, not emoting it.

Or, maybe:
Saying the data shows factor A has more influence on the outcome than factor B is not saying that factor B does not contribute to the outcome whatsoever.

Perhaps an example might help:
No matter how much time you put into you chihuahua, he will likely be a rather poor sheep dog relative to the average border collie.

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roo_ster

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brimic

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Re: editorial about teachers unions
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2012, 05:06:16 PM »
Quote
Perhaps an example might help:
No matter how much time you put into you chihuahua, he will likely be a rather poor sheep dog relative to the average border collie.


So is there a large genetic variation between Caribbean blacks and native born blacks in America?

http://people.umass.edu/smodel/IMR_25.pdf

"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

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roo_ster

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Re: editorial about teachers unions
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2012, 05:44:11 PM »
So is there a large genetic variation between Caribbean blacks and native born blacks in America?

http://people.umass.edu/smodel/IMR_25.pdf

Why, YES!, 23 year old studies done by immigration activists showing what wonderful people immigrants are DOES INDEED trump Watson & Crick's & (the other Nobel prize winner for discovering the structure of DNA)'s work on genetics these last few decades as well as a century of IQ data, twin studies, and the like.  What was I thinking?  :facepalm:

On a less flip note, you would compare two groups largely descended from W Africa with more or less white & indian blood.  You have held the "nature" roughly constant and possibly showed a delta from some other factor.  Assuming the study is gospel...whoop-de-do.  Thanks for driving home a point that everyone else who has heretofore posted in this thread already acknowledged. 

Regards,

roo_ster

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Balog

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Re: editorial about teachers unions
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2012, 05:56:57 PM »
Show your data and make some verifiable claims or stfu. The genetic link of intelligence is about on par with the genetic link of homosexuality, from what I've seen.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

makattak

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Re: editorial about teachers unions
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2012, 09:09:28 PM »
Show your data and make some verifiable claims or stfu. The genetic link of intelligence is about on par with the genetic link of homosexuality, from what I've seen.

 http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2011/08/are_twin_studie.html

Several studies linked there.

 http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/08/twin-studies.html

Also here.

 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21826061

And there's a study for you on this very topic!

I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

brimic

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Re: editorial about teachers unions
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2012, 10:02:16 PM »
Quote
Why, YES!, 23 year old studies done by immigration activists showing what wonderful people immigrants are DOES INDEED trump Watson & Crick's & (the other Nobel prize winner for discovering the structure of DNA)'s work on genetics these last few decades as well as a century of IQ data, twin studies, and the like.  What was I thinking? 

On a less flip note, you would compare two groups largely descended from W Africa with more or less white & indian blood.  You have held the "nature" roughly constant and possibly showed a delta from some other factor.  Assuming the study is gospel...whoop-de-do.  Thanks for driving home a point that everyone else who has heretofore posted in this thread already acknowledged.

So wtf is you point?
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makattak

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Re: editorial about teachers unions
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2012, 11:52:33 PM »
So what you are saying is that a person succeeds or doesn't succeed based on their genetic makeup and not on merits of their own hard work or preparation? The converse would be to say that some don't succeed because of 'bad luck' of getting poor genetic traits.
Sounds like liberal BS to me....

Actually, my philosophy isn't affected by the nature of the cause of individuals success. My philosophy is that no matter how your talents and abilities come about, YOU are better off if society rewards those with the most valuable talents best. ESPECIALLY if you are an individual of little talent or ability.

The heritability of intellect and talent may make a good case for charity but not government interference.

Is your philosophy one that is reliant on the source of success? If so, do you support a 100% inheritance tax?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Scout26

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Re: editorial about teachers unions
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2012, 12:33:15 AM »
It's like fingernails on a chalkboard.

The Country is called Finland. 

The People from Finland are called Finns or Finnish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland

Edited the posts, Carry on.
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Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

roo_ster

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Re: editorial about teachers unions
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2012, 08:17:49 AM »
Show your data and make some verifiable claims or stfu. The genetic link of intelligence is about on par with the genetic link of homosexuality, from what I've seen.

I don't have time to do your homework for you at the moment, what with work & all, but I do thank you for provong another of my points:
Quote from: roo_ster
OTOH, you do have the religious-like fervor of the progressives and other types who really, really want to believe in the plasticity of human nature at the micro & macro levels.  The co-discoverer of DNA lost the nature/nurture argument in the political arena back in 2007.  He could only put decades of research, a scintillating intellect, and a respect for data on the "nature" side of the argument, whereas the other side countered with "STFU, old man!" 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_D._Watson

  :-*
Regards,

roo_ster

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roo_ster

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Re: editorial about teachers unions
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2012, 08:27:03 AM »
So wtf is you point?


That you didn't have one for that post. 

Oh, I will do one bit of homework for you & Balog.  Read Murray & Hernstein's The Bell Curve.

For as little as $3.75 delivered to your door, you can obtain facts to counteract some of the current smelly orthodoxies prevalent in the media:
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=Charles+Murray&bi=0&bx=off&ds=50&n=200000237&recentlyadded=all&sortby=17&sts=t&tn=the+bell+curve&x=72&y=11
Regards,

roo_ster

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Balog

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Re: editorial about teachers unions
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2012, 11:23:10 AM »
I don't have time to do your homework for you at the moment, what with work & all, but I do thank you for provong another of my points:
  :-*

Show your data or shut up != shut up. With that massive genetic intellect advantage you have as a white person one would think you'd realize that.

That you didn't have one for that post. 

Oh, I will do one bit of homework for you & Balog.  Read Murray & Hernstein's The Bell Curve.

For as little as $3.75 delivered to your door, you can obtain facts to counteract some of the current smelly orthodoxies prevalent in the media:
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=Charles+Murray&bi=0&bx=off&ds=50&n=200000237&recentlyadded=all&sortby=17&sts=t&tn=the+bell+curve&x=72&y=11

I'm familiar with the Bell Curve, as well as its issues and the way you're distorting it. I'm also aware that name dropping smart people (Watson and Crick, Watson and Crick, Watson and Crick!!!!!!) is an argument from authority fallacy (especially ironic as I know you disagree with some of the other things they believe), and that when a discussion gets to the “I’m so obviously right that the only possible reason to disagree with me is either ignorance of the subject or moral cowardice” then it’s not really a discussion anymore.

I think I’m gonna put “arguing that black folk aren’t innately stupid with rooster” into the “arguing cops shouldn’t beat and shoot people for no reason with CSD” and “arguing pretty much anything with De Selby” categories. Which is annoying because I’m sure my decision to not debate will give you a little “I won!” glow of satisfaction, even though it is merely a response to your own arrogantly dismissive attitude and refusal to back up your argument other than argument from authority and claims I am unfamiliar with the material in question vs questioning your interpretation of it. I suppose I’ll just console myself with the thought of your daughter marrying a black man, and picturing you trying to explain how God just made them darkies stupider than the white folk.  :-*
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

makattak

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Re: editorial about teachers unions
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2012, 11:50:47 AM »
Show your data or shut up != shut up. With that massive genetic intellect advantage you have as a white person one would think you'd realize that.

I'm familiar with the Bell Curve, as well as its issues and the way you're distorting it. I'm also aware that name dropping smart people (Watson and Crick, Watson and Crick, Watson and Crick!!!!!!) is an argument from authority fallacy (especially ironic as I know you disagree with some of the other things they believe), and that when a discussion gets to the “I’m so obviously right that the only possible reason to disagree with me is either ignorance of the subject or moral cowardice” then it’s not really a discussion anymore.

I think I’m gonna put “arguing that black folk aren’t innately stupid with rooster” into the “arguing cops shouldn’t beat and shoot people for no reason with CSD” and “arguing pretty much anything with De Selby” categories. Which is annoying because I’m sure my decision to not debate will give you a little “I won!” glow of satisfaction, even though it is merely a response to your own arrogantly dismissive attitude and refusal to back up your argument other than argument from authority and claims I am unfamiliar with the material in question vs questioning your interpretation of it. I suppose I’ll just console myself with the thought of your daughter marrying a black man, and picturing you trying to explain how God just made them darkies stupider than the white folk.  :-*


Wow.

Let me ask something then. Are black people, on average, stronger and faster than white people (you could put asian as an option, too)? Yes or no?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

brimic

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Re: editorial about teachers unions
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2012, 12:00:28 PM »
Quote
Let me ask something then. Are black people, on average, stronger and faster than white people (you could put asian as an option, too)? Yes or no?

Are they?

Let me throw a big fat monkey wrench into your implication: The 2011 National League MVP is......... Jewish.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 12:03:31 PM by brimic »
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"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

Balog

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Re: editorial about teachers unions
« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2012, 12:13:06 PM »
Mak: do you view intellect as a purely physical characteristic? And as an addendum, do you view all physical traits (including size/speed/strength)as purely heritable, and not influenced by environmental factors such as available nutrition during childhood?
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

MicroBalrog

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Re: editorial about teachers unions
« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2012, 12:13:50 PM »
Quote
Let me ask something then. Are black people, on average, stronger and faster than white people (you could put asian as an option, too)? Yes or no? ][q/uote]

Are they?

Nor is the heredity of strength as simple as intelligence.

Intelligence depends also on things  such as  the quality of the food supply (thus the rise in raw IQ scores in the past century or so), education (IQ can rise or fall in the same individual over years), and of course culture.

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makattak

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Re: editorial about teachers unions
« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2012, 12:28:55 PM »
Are they?

Let me throw a big fat monkey wrench into your implication: The 2011 National League MVP is......... Jewish.

 :facepalm: I'm smarter than most asians. That doesn't prove that white people, on average, are more intelligent than asians.

I'm also faster than most black people. That doesn't prove that white people, on average, are faster than black people.

Mak: do you view intellect as a purely physical characteristic? And as an addendum, do you view all physical traits (including size/speed/strength)as purely heritable, and not influenced by environmental factors such as available nutrition during childhood?

No, but I believe it is SIGNIFICANTLY genetic. Nutrition and education are important in that a child that is malnourished or raised by wolves is unlikely to be very intelligent. After some basic level of provision (I don't know, like, maybe living in a first wrold country), genetics is the major determinant. (I also note you dodged my question)

Are they?

Nor is the heredity of strength as simple as intelligence.

Intelligence depends also on things  such as  the quality of the food supply (thus the rise in raw IQ scores in the past century or so), education (IQ can rise or fall in the same individual over years), and of course culture

Again, if a child is malnourished or uneducated, his intelligence will suffer, just as a malnourished or unexercised child will not be very strong or fast.

 
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

brimic

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Re: editorial about teachers unions
« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2012, 12:42:00 PM »
Quote
Again, if a child is malnourished or uneducated, his intelligence will suffer, just as a malnourished or unexercised child will not be very strong or fast.

So are you arguing that intelligence is purely genetic or that culture is an important factor as well?


Let me clarify my position- its both, but having a culture of strong family ties and work ethic is far more important than 'genetic intelligence' in whether a group of people are more successful or not

« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 12:47:32 PM by brimic »
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

roo_ster

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Re: editorial about teachers unions
« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2012, 01:17:15 PM »
Show your data or shut up != shut up. With that massive genetic intellect advantage you have as a white person one would think you'd realize that.

I'm familiar with the Bell Curve, as well as its issues and the way you're distorting it. I'm also aware that name dropping smart people (Watson and Crick, Watson and Crick, Watson and Crick!!!!!!) is an argument from authority fallacy (especially ironic as I know you disagree with some of the other things they believe), and that when a discussion gets to the “I’m so obviously right that the only possible reason to disagree with me is either ignorance of the subject or moral cowardice” then it’s not really a discussion anymore.

I think I’m gonna put “arguing that black folk aren’t innately stupid with rooster” into the “arguing cops shouldn’t beat and shoot people for no reason with CSD” and “arguing pretty much anything with De Selby” categories. Which is annoying because I’m sure my decision to not debate will give you a little “I won!” glow of satisfaction, even though it is merely a response to your own arrogantly dismissive attitude and refusal to back up your argument other than argument from authority and claims I am unfamiliar with the material in question vs questioning your interpretation of it. I suppose I’ll just console myself with the thought of your daughter marrying a black man, and picturing you trying to explain how God just made them darkies stupider than the white folk.  :-*

Quote
I'm familiar with the Bell Curve, as well as its issues and the way you're distorting it. I'm also aware that name dropping smart people (Watson and Crick, Watson and Crick, Watson and Crick!!!!!!)

If you actually read TBC, rather than ignorant critiques of it, you'd know that I am not distorting it.  Go ahead, try reading it.  Lemme give you a hint: the book is not about race.  Matter of fact, almost all the book's cited stats control for race.  You'd know that if you had actually read it.  It even has a quick & dirty statistics primer for those not familiar with stats, but willing to learn, in an appendix.  That alone is worth $3.75.

I brought up Watson for two points:
1. Did not feel like re-telling the entire story of genetics.  Look it up.
2. He was pilloried for speaking honestly about the heritable component of general intelligence.
3. If you had been familiar with him and his 2007 denouement, it would be a shorthand way of encapsulating the argument.

Also, not every adverse argument is a fallacy.

Aristotle’s Rhetoric concentrates on the following
Logos
Pathos
Ethos

All have their place.  In Watson's case, using him as an authority is not a fallacy, as it relies on his decades of research in the field (which most certainly produced hard data), the similarity of his exit from the public stage, and not his moral rectitude. 

Quote
I think I’m gonna put “arguing that black folk aren’t innately stupid with rooster”

Now who is distorting another's writings?

Quote
I suppose I’ll just console myself with the thought of your daughter marrying a black man, and picturing you trying to explain how God just made them darkies stupider than the white folk.

Wow, all the ignorance of the left along with stolen cheap grace obtained by chewing off, masticating, and vomiting forth the work of the civil rights movement for your purposes.  Toss in a smidge of malevolence, to boot.

I would like to thank you for demonstrating the religious fervor some folk demonstrate on this topic.  Your playing the race card is both helpful and convincing in a way that describing such could never be.  Also, beyond parody.
Regards,

roo_ster

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----G.K. Chesterton

Balog

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Re: editorial about teachers unions
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2012, 01:41:38 PM »
So are you or are you not saying that intelligence is largely determined by genetic factors, and that certain racial groups are therefore generally less intelligent? Is that or is that not your argument? Actual answers instead of vague BS accusations please.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.