Exec Privledge for Fast and Furious

[Strings]

>violating international arms trafficking laws, perjury<

Would it be possible for this fact to actually be used against us?

"See... Americans can't be trusted to allow dealing in arms!"

[longeyes]

They will be terrified to poke the bear further if they get away with it?  Really?  As if there's only one bear rather than an entire clan of bears...

We keep sliding into the pit of lawlessness and tribalism, and we are damn near the point of no return.

[DittoHead]

Pinning the death of the ICE agent, or anyone else linked to Fast & Furious guns, on the ATF doesn't sit well with me. Seems like it follows the same logic as blaming the gun shop or the gun manufacturer or the gun itself. That's something we don't do. They did screw up, but Mexican cartels kill people every day without guns the ATF was supposed to keep track of.

[Perd Hapley]

Pinning the death of the ICE agent, or anyone else linked to Fast & Furious guns, on the ATF doesn't sit well with me. Seems like it follows the same logic as blaming the gun shop or the gun manufacturer or the gun itself. That's something we don't do. They did screw up, but Mexican cartels kill people every day without guns the ATF was supposed to keep track of.

   Maybe I'm missing something here, but they didn't the ATF KNOWLINGLY pass guns along to KNOWN bad guys? You want to compare that to honest gun shops and gun makers selling guns to the public? It seems obvious who is using the logic of the gun-grabbers. 

[lupinus]

Pinning the death of the ICE agent, or anyone else linked to Fast & Furious guns, on the ATF doesn't sit well with me. Seems like it follows the same logic as blaming the gun shop or the gun manufacturer or the gun itself. That's something we don't do. They did screw up, but Mexican cartels kill people every day without guns the ATF was supposed to keep track of.

So illegally obtaining firearms, passing them along to known criminals, across an international border with no permission from the other side of that border and no plan to track them, in an effort to make gun manufacturers look bad, is the same as a manufacturer or dealer selling to someone who to the best of their knowledge is legit but who then goes out and shoots someone.

Right. Not seeing and difference there. [/sarcasm]

Are you kidding me?

[RevDisk]

Pinning the death of the ICE agent, or anyone else linked to Fast & Furious guns, on the ATF doesn't sit well with me. Seems like it follows the same logic as blaming the gun shop or the gun manufacturer or the gun itself. That's something we don't do. They did screw up, but Mexican cartels kill people every day without guns the ATF was supposed to keep track of.

BATFE, apparently or allegedly at the direction of the DOJ, intentionally ordered gun dealers to knowingly sell to the Mexican cartels. The BATFE knew, and stated so in internal memos/emails, that this would eventually cause the fatalities of both US and Mexican citizens. While yes, they could get guns otherwise, it is still being an accessory to murder.

In other words, the entity that committed the criminal acts disagrees with your position.

[Scout26]

First we have LZ Granderson's "These aren't the guns you're looking for.  Just ignore the man the behind the curtain."

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/26/opinion/granderson-fast-furious/index.html?hpt=hp_bn7

What follows is my friend Mike Cantelon's post from his FB page.  He's says it better than I.

LZ Granderson says put on the blinders. You don't need to know that your elected officials and thier appointees are a bunch of criminals. These are not the droids you're looking for ...

*Ahem.* Anyhow, LZ says that sometimes our government needs to "get its hands dirty" so we should just look away and let it happen. Sorry, buddy; honor and integrity are two of my guiding principals. I don't approve of sending guns to Iranian terrorists any more than I approve of sending guns to Mexican narco-terrorists. I wanted bin Laden captured alive. And I didn't go out the night he was killed to celebrate with the masses; I stayed home and prayed for him, for his family, and for those Seals. If there are any hands getting dirty on my behalf, they should be my own. I don't hide behind my government, and I don't want them hiding anything from me either; especially when it is a crime. The American people have the right to know, and should know, when a crime is being committed in thier names. I have honored my country with my actions, and I expect it to return the favor. I don't think it is too much to ask that the people I pay to run this government behave with honor and integrity.

And another thing, Project Wide Receiver and Project Road Runner were not "earlier versions of Fast and Furious under President Bush." Your Jedi mind tricks won't work on me. The Bush administration actually tracked the guns and tried to prevent them from leaving the country. Under Eric Holder and the Obama administration, the DoJ actually refused to allow the firearms to be tracked, and told to CIA and ICE to look the other way after they raised alarms over BATFE and FBI tactics. In Wide Receiver and Road Runner, a few guns slipped away due to shoddy surveillance, and the majority were intercepted at the border (which is why it was named "Wide Receiver"); whereas in Fast and Furious they were given away WITH NO SURVEILLANCE and NO ATTEMPT TO INTERCEPT THE GUNS. The operations were run completely different; and some claim the goals of the operations were different too.

[Perd Hapley]

What kind of guns were being "walked"? Do we know what kind, or how many were full-auto?

[Scout26]

AFAIK, Zero full auto.  All were semi-auto EBRs, AK's and other evil looking guns.

[DittoHead]

(stuff I didn't say)

It's blaming the source of the tool.

The BATFE knew, and stated so in internal memos/emails, that this would eventually cause the fatalities of both US and Mexican citizens.

Interesting, got a link?

[lupinus]

It's blaming the source of the tool.

And ignoring the source in this case is ignoring culpability

[Perd Hapley]

Yeah, why would we blame the ATF for allowing guns to be illegally sold to Mexican drug cartels? It's not like keeping guns from being sold to Mexican drug cartels is their job, or anything.

[DittoHead]

Yeah, why would we blame the ATF for allowing guns to be illegally sold to Mexican drug cartels? It's not like keeping guns from being sold to Mexican drug cartels is their job, or anything.

I absolutely agree they failed at their job. They are at fault for the drug cartels getting those guns, they are not at fault for the actions of the cartels.

[AmbulanceDriver]

Here's a question:

Would a reasonable person have presumed that by ordering guns to be sold to Mexican drug cartels, the drug cartels would use said guns to, oh, I dunno, commit crimes?  Up to and including murder?

[Strings]

The distinction seems to be "knowingly".

Joe the Gunshop Owner sells me a Beretta. My record is clean, I can pass the idiot test... he has no reason to doubt what's going on. So he isn't culpable if I use that weapon to commit a crime.

The ATF orders Joe to sell guns to folks KNOWING they are bound for Mexico, and likely to be used for crimes? That makes everyone involved an accessory to the crime...

[Fitz]

Private citizens aren't allowed to knowingly sell guns to criminals, the federal government shouldn't be allowed to either

[DittoHead]

Would a reasonable person have presumed that by ordering guns to be sold to Mexican drug cartels, the drug cartels would use said guns to, oh, I dunno, commit crimes?  Up to and including murder?

A reasonable person can presume that drug cartels will be committing those crimes regardless of ATF involvement.
I believe if they had tracked those guns perfectly, arrested the people as they had hoped, the cartel still would have killed the same people the same way with different guns. Same thing if the ATF never started the program. The cartels are responsible for killing those people, the ATF is responsible for poorly executing a terrible plan.

[zxcvbob]

A reasonable person can presume that drug cartels will be committing those crimes regardless of ATF involvement.
I believe if they had tracked those guns perfectly, arrested the people as they had hoped, the cartel still would have killed the same people the same way with different guns. Same thing if the ATF never started the program. The cartels are responsible for killing those people, the ATF is responsible for poorly executing a terrible plan.

So if you drive the getaway car at a bank robbery where someone gets killed, you're not responsible because the robber would have just found someone else to drive?  Good luck with that.  (look up the Felony Murder Rule)  Perhaps some high-ranking government official shouldn't get the death penalty for this, but that should be the starting point for plea bargain negotiations.

[Scout26]

the ATF is responsible for poorly executing a terrible plan.

The ATF did not "poorly execute a terrible plan."  

They willfully, deliberately put in place an operation designed to arm the most vicious of drug cartels.  It's as if Elliot Ness had provided guns to Al Capone.

The intent and purpose of which was to "prove" that 90% of Mexican crime guns came from the US.  So that this administration would have "do something" to stop it.  Like put further curbs on our rights.

The blood of innocent Mexicans and Americans (that one is an LEO does not make his murder greater than the others) is on Eric Holder's hands and by claiming Executive Privilege, now Obama's.

Last I checked, murder is illegal.  And the ATF KNEW that at some point these guns would be used to kill.

On March 23, President Barack Obama appeared on Univision and spoke about the "gunwalking" controversy. He said that neither he nor Attorney General Holder authorized Fast and Furious. He also stated, "There may be a situation here in which a serious mistake was made, and if that's the case then we'll find out and we'll hold somebody accountable."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20046151-10391695.html

Fine, do it Mr President.  You said you would.

[DittoHead]

They willfully, deliberately put in place an operation designed to arm the most vicious of drug cartels.  It's as if Elliot Ness had provided guns to Al Capone.
The intent and purpose of which was to "prove" that 90% of Mexican crime guns came from the US.  So that this administration would have "do something" to stop it.  Like put further curbs on our rights.
The blood of innocent Mexicans and Americans (that one is an LEO does not make his murder greater than the others) is on Eric Holder's hands and by claiming Executive Privilege, now Obama's

The Bush administration started it, did they have the same design & intent? It was a terrible plan, it should have never been put in place as wide receiver, much less revived as fast & furious. Incompetence seems more believable to me than conspiracy.

So if you drive the getaway car at a bank robbery where someone gets killed, you're not responsible because the robber would have just found someone else to drive? 

So if you sell someone a car later used for getaway at a bank robbery where someone gets killed, you're responsible? The chain of responsibility cannot go on forever until you find someone you dislike. 

[Scout26]

The Bush administration started it, did they have the same design & intent? It was a terrible plan, it should have never been put in place as wide receiver, much less revived as fast & furious. Incompetence seems more believable to me than conspiracy.

No, you need to read up on the two, their differences and stop listening to the "It was Bush's fault/The same thing!!" crowd/MSM.  Wide Receiver actively tried to track the guns and prevent them from going across the border. When guns managed to go over, the program was shut down.   Fast and Furious willfully and deliberately allowed guns to walk, BATFE agents were told by their supervisors to break off surveillance and tracking of the guns the moment they left the gun store(s).  No attempt was made to follow them, or even let the Mexican .gov know or work with them.     

So if you sell someone a car later used for getaway at a bank robbery where someone gets killed, you're responsible? The chain of responsibility cannot go on forever until you find someone you dislike. 

You are obviously not versed on Accessory laws.  No, you would not be.  You have to have some knowledge that a crime had been or was going to be committed.

If Joe Gunshopowner knowing and willfully sold guns to prohibited persons (Straw Buyers) he would be guilty of a Federal Offense.   The Gunshop Owners told the ATF that either a) They knew these to be prohibited persons and/or b) They suspected they were prohibited persons.  In all cases the ATF told them to proceed with the sale(s).
 

[AmbulanceDriver]

No, but if you sell a car to someone you *know* has a history of intentionally running people over with cars, then yes, you may be found at the least civilly liable...

[zxcvbob]

So if you sell someone a car later used for getaway at a bank robbery where someone gets killed, you're responsible? The chain of responsibility cannot go on forever until you find someone you dislike. 

That depends; was it illegal for you to sell that car?  Did you know at the time you sold it that the car would be used to commit a felony?

[Balog]

If you are selling a gun, and the buyer informs you that 1. it is illegal for them to possess that gun & 2. they plan to use it to commit murder then yes you are in fact guilty of being an accessory, regardless of if they would be able to illegally acquire it somewhere else.

[Scout26]

Here's a fairly evenhanded account.  From the Washington Post.  Not exactly that seething hotbed of anti-Obama-ism and Pro 2A.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-anti-gunrunning-effort-turns-fatally-wrong/2011/07/14/gIQAH5d6YI_story.html