Iraq post-war "quagmire" - nothing new - only reporting is!

[richyoung]

Over and over I hear "Iraq is a quagmire", "We need an exit strategy", "All we did is incite terrorism", etc.  For those with no knowledge of, or respect for, history, this line of "reasoning" can make superficial sense at first perusal.  However, an examination of history will reveal that the current state of affairs in Iraq is but a repeat of several previous conflicts.   A few historically pointed quistions will help to illustrate:

1.  In photographs of American and Allied occupation forces in the former Third Riech, in the immediate post-war period, jeeps have an angle-iron post attached to the middle of the front bumper pointing up, until it is at or above windshield height.  Why?

2.  In Korea, after the Inchon landings, vast numbers of North Korean soldiers were cut off and unable to rettreat back to North Korea.  What did many of these troops do?

3.  What was our "exit strategy" for Germany?

4.  What was our "exit strategy" for Italy?

5.  What was our "exit strategy" for Japan?

6.  What was our "exit strategy" for Okinawa?

7.  What was our "exit strategy" for Korea?

8.  What was the "exit strategy" for our peace-keeping forces in the Sinai?

[charby]

1.  In photographs of American and Allied occupation forces in the former Third Riech, in the immediate post-war period, jeeps have an angle-iron post attached to the middle of the front bumper pointing up, until it is at or above windshield height.  Why?

I had to go look that one up, Anti-decapitation device. Interesting, I didn't know the Axis Powers/ sympathizers resorted to that.

[richyoung]

1.  In photographs of American and Allied occupation forces in the former Third Riech, in the immediate post-war period, jeeps have an angle-iron post attached to the middle of the front bumper pointing up, until it is at or above windshield height.  Why?

I had to go look that one up, Anti-decapitation device. Interesting, I didn't know the Axis Powers/ sympathizers resorted to that.

The guerilla/partisan "post"-war phase of the European theater is largely ignored by history...as is the continued White Russian resistance.

[Perd Hapley]

1.  In photographs of American and Allied occupation forces in the former Third Riech, in the immediate post-war period, jeeps have an angle-iron post attached to the middle of the front bumper pointing up, until it is at or above windshield height.  Why?

To fend off attacks from wires strung across the road at neck height.

2.  In Korea, after the Inchon landings, vast numbers of North Korean soldiers were cut off and unable to rettreat back to North Korea.  What did many of these troops do?

I don't know, did they "insurge," perhaps?

3.  What was our "exit strategy" for Germany?

4.  What was our "exit strategy" for Italy?

5.  What was our "exit strategy" for Japan?

6.  What was our "exit strategy" for Okinawa?

7.  What was our "exit strategy" for Korea?

8.  What was the "exit strategy" for our peace-keeping forces in the Sinai?

Current exit strategy is to figure out some way to leave without too much whining about the lost jobs.

[jefnvk]

Did the Jeeps not have a windshield, or s it just not strong enough?

Sorry to take away from the meaning of the thread.  How long were we in Germany and Japan?  Come to thnk about it, I don't think we have left yet.

[richyoung]

Did the Jeeps not have a windshield, or s it just not strong enough?

Sorry to take away from the meaning of the thread.  How long were we in Germany and Japan?  Come to thnk about it, I don't think we have left yet.

Thats the point I was trying to make - 61 years later, we haven't "exited" yet...

[garrettwc]

Good points all. History is either ignored, or so poorly taught in public schools that people just don't think about it.

[Firethorn]

Thats the point I was trying to make - 61 years later, we haven't "exited" yet...

I've gotten a few people by asking them to name the 'success stories' where we've 'exited'?  Germany, Japan, South Korea, we're still there.  We have 'exited' Vietnam, Mogedishu, and Panama(sorta), but how much of a success story are them?  Heck, we only left Panama after nearly a century.

Did the Jeeps not have a windshield, or s it just not strong enough?

From what I remember, the windshield wasn't that strong and even if it didn't break, a wire could ride the windshield up and snap back down after the window to get the passengers.  Much better to put a 'cable cutter' on it to actually break the cable, rendering it harmless(well, after the snapping is done).

[jefnvk]

From what I remember, the windshield wasn't that strong and even if it didn't break, a wire could ride the windshield up and snap back down after the window to get the passengers.  Much better to put a 'cable cutter' on it to actually break the cable, rendering it harmless(well, after the snapping is done).

Ah, probably makes more sense to leave the trap useless.  Cometo thnk about it, motorcycle probably use the roads too.

[Firethorn]

Ah, probably makes more sense to leave the trap useless.  Cometo thnk about it, motorcycle probably use the roads too.

That and the cable cutter's cheaper than replacing windshields all the time.  Yeah, you had to be carefull riding a motorcycle over there for a while.  I'm too young for it, but I've read some of the history.

Fistful:  The guy's name is quagmire.  Go figure.  He's from the show family guy.

[RevDisk]

3.  What was our "exit strategy" for Germany?

4.  What was our "exit strategy" for Italy?

5.  What was our "exit strategy" for Japan?

6.  What was our "exit strategy" for Okinawa?

7.  What was our "exit strategy" for Korea?

8.  What was the "exit strategy" for our peace-keeping forces in the Sinai?

With Germany, WWII ended and the Cold War began.   Germany was split into two countries for forty years, and we expected the Soviets to roll through the Fulda Gap.    So there was only a short period (if any, depending on opinion) between wars.   The Cold War only ended in 1990, and we're indeed pulling forces out of Germany and closing/downsizing bases.  

Italy, we maintain a couple of airbases, but post WWII, we didn't keep all that many forces there.

Ironically with Okinawa, we returned control (more or less) back to Japan who had annexed the place in a none too gentle manner.  


Technically, the Korean War has never ended.  Realistically, the Korean War has never ended.   If you don't believe me, ask some grunt who spent time up near the DMZ recently.   We basically have a "cease fire" that's violated fairly often.

We had "Observers" in the Sinai, not technically "peacekeepers".   The exit strategy was asking Israel to hand back the Sinai to Egypt.  

We still have a small skeleton crew in the Balkans too.   Some in Bosnia, some in Kosovo.  We closed down Camp Able Sentry down in Macedonia, and there's no US forces outside the Embassy in that country.   (Tho, I did enjoy hitting the bars in Petrovich)   There's only a couple hundred soldiers in that region.   UN runs the show anyways, so we don't do too much there anyways.


Yea, we need to work on that "exit strategy" thing.   We tend to keep a lot of airbases open in formerly occupied countries.  A lot of Military Assistance Groups have come and gone without too many people nothing.    We had one in Greece, fighting the commies.   Another in South Africa, fighting 'insurgents' from the Congo.   Probably about a dozen others.   We've faught more than a few undeclared pseudo wars in Central America.

[Monkeyleg]

richyoung, thanks for the post. I knew that there were many, many attacks on our forces in Germany following the surrender, but didn't know about the angle iron. (Makes sense, though: I've heard many stories of motorcyclists here in the US being killed that way).

In order to judge an "exit strategy," one must first judge the merits of the "entrance strategy."

Germany wasn't a direct threat to us in the 1930's. And we could have mollified the Japanese by not interfering with their oil and rubber imports.

Obviously, though, we had a vested interest in keeping Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan from dominating their respective regions. The same held true of the Soviet Union worldwide.

We now have an even greater interest in changing the situation in the last region of the world that is a direct threat to us, the Middle East. (China will not likely attack us anytime soon, and North Korea's Kim Jong Il can be bought off cheap).

Even if we were to bring home all of our troops from every base everywhere in the world, and simply retreat to within our own borders, the Islamofascists would still attack us.

[RevDisk]

Even if we were to bring home all of our troops from every base everywhere in the world, and simply retreat to within our own borders, the Islamofascists would still attack us.

Bit off topic, but not much.   I've noticed the term "Islamofascist" and always wondered about it.   The last Islamic fascist forces I'm familiar with would be the 21st Waffen Gebirgs Division der SS "Skanderbeg", which was an Shqiptari (Albanian Muslims) Waffen SS division.  Yea, there was a Nazi division mostly comprised of Muslims with a handful of Catholics.  Go figure.  

Modern Islamic fundimentalists are known for their desire for theocratic governments, not fascist forms of govt.   According to the American Heritage Dictionary, fascism is "A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism."   Islamic fundimentalists want a system of govt with authority of Sharia, Islamic law.    Severe socioeconomic controls, ultra nationalism and racism are not exactly 'halal' under Sharia.  

So am I missing something, or is the term very inaccurate?

[Ron]

According to the American Heritage Dictionary, fascism is "A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism."   Islamic fundamentalists want a system of govt with authority of Sharia, Islamic law.

It is a mater of semantics.

The end result of so called "Islamofascism" is a Theocratic fascism.

The Taliban was pretty fascist in practice, just a different name (Their take on Islam) for its motivation.

I don't use the term anymore even though i don't think it is necessarily inaccurate.

It seems those that use it get stuck in "their nazis no your a Nazi " type arguments.

The left seem t operate under the delusion that our current administration is more Nazi like than the taliban and their ilk.

[grampster]

Didn't the term "exit strategy" begin as an opposition politcal term that came out of the "Lesson of Vietnam"? It's a way of embarrasing the oposition political party when the your party does not have a solution to a situation.   Imho the term has no practical meaning when a country is at war.

  Well, I'll revise my statement.  I think a definition of exit strategy would be the total and unequivical defeat and surrender of the enemy.  EG:  My exit stategy in the war on terror is the ultimate and total defeat of our enemy; radical, apostate Wahabist Islam.


As an aside, the "Lesson of Vietnam" is lost on most folks.  That lesson is that if one is to go to war, one does not stop till the job is done properly.  Methods may change but the end result should be the same.  As my father used to say:  "If you do a job, do it right."

[Monkeyleg]

RevDisk, the term "Islamofacists" is indeed an intellectually lazy way of labelling our latest enemies.

So, call them what you will. But semantics cannot change the challenge that we face: a nation like Iran armed possibly armed with nukes, and an almost untrackable global network of terrorists who will gladly die to take out a dozen, two dozen, or a thousand innocents by act of suicide.

The Cold War diverted our attention to the growth of such groups. And, in perfect hindsight, we now see that we armed many of the groups that are now poised against us. With the USSR no longer their enemy, they have turned their sights on us.

Again, though, people are being short-sighted when they speak of "exit strategies." Exit strategies are well down the road. We've only begun to establish our entrance stragegies.

[Perd Hapley]

RevDisk,

I sympathize with you; the term is thrown around quite loosely.  But who cares?

[RevDisk]

RevDisk,

I sympathize with you; the term is thrown around quite loosely.  But who cares?

I was merely curious how the term came into usage.  I've heard it used, and wondered about it.  "Islamotheocrats" doesn't roll off the tongue as smoothly, I suppose.