Author Topic: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage  (Read 40850 times)

RevDisk

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #125 on: December 09, 2012, 05:15:54 PM »
Added:  I am of the general belief that a strict religious structure is actually healthy for society overall as there is less grey area between right and wrong.  I rebelled against organized religion in my younger days.  But on the whole, I see a great deal of merit in structure.  Structure is what our society is lacking.  A strict structure allows the government and society to have a less strict structure because the laws are simply not necessary.

I dunno. I'm not disagreeing, but I've seen strict religious structures. Amish, Orthodox Judism, Eastern Orthodox and several Muslim countries.

Amish and OJ communities I saw were not the majorities. I've heard arguments that "I've never seen an Amish try to ban electricity or a OJ try to ban bacon." Erm. Not sure. OJ does try to enforce it's will on non-OJ in Israel. If they were 90% majority maybe, except neither has a strong military tradition. Macing women or shaving beards is one thing. To enforce your will on a population, you need to make pretty lax or reasonable laws, or be willing to enforce your will with an iron fist and plenty of blood. Amish don't tend to want social interaction with Outsiders. They use mostly non-violent practices in enforcing draconian internal rules, primary based around indoctrination and threat of exile.

Plenty of religiously strict communities may have less grey areas, but no less decadence or immoral behavior. They are just more quiet about it. Amish has plenty of domestic violence incidents that are NEVER spoke of. Taliban has a habit of using underage males for recreational purposes. Folks have made jokes about Catholic Church priests and young boys for many years. My guess is both liberal and strictly religious communities have varying levels of decadence or immorality, but one is more open about the matter than the other. I don't think you can claim there is any correlation.

I'd also argue that the religion is a lot less important than the culture. In some places, the two become the same. Others, not so much. My cousins grew up in Japan. Not so much religious, but very culturally strict. My uncle and aunt moved back to the States because "half breeds" were NOT culturally tolerated. Sometimes strict, no ambiguity, black and white views are entirely wrong even if believed by 90+% of the culture. I'm quite sure many Japanese believe this to be a very healthy belief, and glad for the righteous certainty. My cousins are not sub-human, regardless strictness of culture or religion.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #126 on: December 09, 2012, 05:25:25 PM »
And really, fistful, you (personally) should be the last person on this board to try calling for religious tolerance...

Why on earth would that be?
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Ron

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #127 on: December 09, 2012, 05:27:18 PM »
Rev said:
Quote
I'd also argue that the religion is a lot less important than the culture. In some places, the two become the same. Others, not so much.

Sooo true.

Christianity gets blamed for a lot that has nothing to do with being Christian or what a Christian should be doing from even a casual perusal of the New Testament. Cultures that adopted and became "Christianized" can and have done very unChristian things.

Conversely Christianity or Christians will be given credit or take credit for things that have a somewhat more convoluted or complicated history, especially here in the USA.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #128 on: December 09, 2012, 05:31:16 PM »
Conversely Christianity or Christians will be given credit or take credit for things that have a somewhat more convoluted or complicated history, especially here in the USA.


You mean, the way heterosexual marriage is now a religious idea forced on the nation by crazed theocrats?
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Ron

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #129 on: December 09, 2012, 05:51:09 PM »
1.  I'm not without religion, I just don't discuss mine on the internet much.

2. Please. I've never defended the atrocities of Communism, and much of the Christian sponsored atrocities had a large government role, but then they were Christian governments.  That said the USSR, China, and some crazy Cambodians? One century of blood?  The Cross has the blood of literally half the world at its feet.  The history of European expansion is by and large a history of subjugation to the cross. Entire civilizations wiped out.  The USSR couldn't even wipe out the Chechans.

If you want to blame Kings, Queens and governments using religious fervor to manipulate their subjects we will be in agreement.

I'll also add I blame those same Kings, Queens and governments for perverting and obviously distorting the message of Jesus as told in the four gospels. Any nation building or even imposition of will by force flies in the face of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

If dogmush goes out and murders a bunch innocent bureaucrats in the name of Oleg Volk and his most Glorious website APS am I to be held accountable for his insanity? Have we not all railed against big government? Do we not all come here to talk about our instruments of destruction? It is obvious that dogmush's murderous rampage is the logical conclusion of the influence of the philosophy espoused here at APS.

Write down the desires of humans on pieces of paper and put them in a jar.

Pull any one piece out and someone has been murdered in pursuit of it, sometimes ganging up and murdering as a group.

The common denominator is humans.        

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« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 06:08:27 PM by Ron »
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dogmush

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #130 on: December 09, 2012, 09:14:57 PM »
If you want to blame Kings, Queens and governments using religious fervor to manipulate their subjects we will be in agreement.

I'll also add I blame those same Kings, Queens and governments for perverting and obviously distorting the message of Jesus as told in the four gospels. Any nation building or even imposition of will by force flies in the face of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

If dogmush goes out and murders a bunch innocent bureaucrats in the name of Oleg Volk and his most Glorious website APS am I to be held accountable for his insanity? Have we not all railed against big government? Do we not all come here to talk about our instruments of destruction? It is obvious that dogmush's murderous rampage is the logical conclusion of the influence of the philosophy espoused here at APS.
.....
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I don't actually want to get in a theological debate here, mostly because I suspect neither of us will be swayed.  But I feel constrained to point out that for centuries that Christians were killing people wholesale in his name, yes much was done at the behest of governments, but the mainstream of Christianity at the time all agreed that it was the righteous path.  Indeed at the time that was the main thrust of Christianity.

Now, I rejoice that current doctrine doesn't accept, for example, the Inquisition.  I think it makes us better as a species, and it definatly makes Christianity better as a religion.  But there have been now more burning bushes.  Modern Christians have only faith and the Hubris that they're better then their fathers  as evidence that the current tolerance is more Christly then a good crusade.

That's worth remembering when you remember your history.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #131 on: December 09, 2012, 11:02:52 PM »
the mainstream of Christianity at the time all agreed that it was the righteous path.  

But that has no bearing on whether such things can be justified in light of Christ's teachings. They can't, of course.

Quote
Indeed at the time that was the main thrust of Christianity.

Please explain.

Quote
Now, I rejoice that current doctrine doesn't accept, for example, the Inquisition.
 

There is no "current doctrine." There are Catholics, which still have an Inquisition, and there are other denominations. Of course, your point is that the Catholic Church doesn't do the same sort of Inquisitiony tortures anymore. And the Anglicans don't imprison the Puritans anymore. That I agree with.


Quote
But there have been now more burning bushes.  Modern Christians have only faith and the Hubris that they're better then their fathers  as evidence that the current tolerance is more Christly then a good crusade.

That's worth remembering when you remember your history.

You're misremembering history. There have been no burning bushes (unless you're a Mormon - or a Muslim). No burning bushes are needed, to discredit things that violated Christian doctrine from the beginning. Instread, there was a renewed interest in the Bible, and more liberal political theories that made religious freedom a thing.

So I would have to disagree that Christianity somehow allowed for persecution at one time, and then mysteriously changed. Persecution has simply never been an actual Christian doctrine.
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zxcvbob

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #132 on: December 09, 2012, 11:07:00 PM »
Quote
...which still have an Inquisition

I didn't expect that.
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ArfinGreebly

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #133 on: December 09, 2012, 11:16:29 PM »
"Look at it this way. If America frightens you, feel free to live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries that don't suffer from excessive liberty. America is where the Liberty is. Liberty is not certified safe."

Strings

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #134 on: December 09, 2012, 11:27:35 PM »
>Christianity gets blamed for a lot that has nothing to do with being Christian or what a Christian should be doing from even a casual perusal of the New Testament. Cultures that adopted and became "Christianized" can and have done very unChristian things.<

This is actually evidenced by something that has always seriously puzzled me...

Why is it all the big, bad cults* use Christian window dressing for their insanity? Seems that other faiths (wicca, quite notably) would be FAR easier to twist for cult use. However, every time another cult leader pops up in the news, he's claiming to be Christ reborn...




*I'm thinking Jonestown, Branch Davidians, and suchlike
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Strings

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #135 on: December 09, 2012, 11:29:04 PM »
>If dogmush goes out and murders a bunch innocent bureaucrats in the name of Oleg Volk and his most Glorious website APS am I to be held accountable for his insanity?<

No... that would be fistful.

Seriously dude: have you NOT been on here long enough to have learned such a fundamental rule? :P
No Child Should Live In Fear

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #136 on: December 10, 2012, 01:43:50 PM »
You really can't tell me why I don't get to talk about religious tolerance?
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longeyes

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #137 on: December 10, 2012, 03:56:57 PM »
Hmmm.  In my view wars are primarily about DNA and the cultural manifestation of that DNA.  The rest is rationalization.

Gays are threatening, to those who are threatened, because they embody two notions: a refusal to fight for the "culture," and lack of propagation of the culture biologically.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 04:53:33 PM by longeyes »
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #138 on: December 10, 2012, 04:36:04 PM »
Hmmm.  In my view wars are primarily about DNA and the cultural manifestation of that DNA.  The rest is rationalization.

Gays are threatening, to those who are threatened, because they embody two notions: a refusal to fight for the the "culture," and lack of propagation of the culture biologically.

What is a "cultural manifestation of DNA?"

And how does your 1st assertion about DNA make any sense when we have American citizens who are racially vietnamese fighting in Vietnam, American citizens who are racially German fighting in WWII, American citizens who are racially Arabic/Persian/Kurd/Turk/"over there-ish" fighting in the GWoT?
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longeyes

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #139 on: December 10, 2012, 04:59:02 PM »
We do not propagate or establish community loyalties only through biological means, we do that through para-biological means, aka "culture."  All of this establishes a "people." 

The individuals you refer to consider themselves sufficiently of this "people" to fight for it.  That is precisely what I am talking about.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #140 on: December 10, 2012, 05:40:44 PM »
Hmmm.  In my view wars are primarily about DNA and the cultural manifestation of that DNA.  The rest is rationalization.

Gays are threatening, to those who are threatened, because they embody two notions: a refusal to fight for the "culture," and lack of propagation of the culture biologically.

I suppose, if I felt threatened by "gays," I would not mind having them register their relationships with the government. Might help us keep an eye on 'em. But since I don't find them threatening...
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longeyes

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #141 on: December 10, 2012, 06:04:14 PM »
What's threatening isn't gays, it's people who should be on our side who in fact are in the employ of collectivism and conformism.  Unfortunately, that includes too much of big business with its cult of diversity and belief that whatever sells is good.
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red headed stranger

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #142 on: December 10, 2012, 07:10:00 PM »

"What is the purpose of the government's involvement in the institution of marriage?"


Civil marriage, in most places, existed in part to allow people to marry in situations where churches would not marry them (ie interfaith or interracial marriages). 

Today, there are some mainline churches that will perform same-sex ceremonies. However, now it is the State that will not recognize these marriages. 
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RevDisk

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #143 on: December 11, 2012, 08:11:21 AM »
Gays are threatening, to those who are threatened, because they embody two notions: a refusal to fight for the "culture," and lack of propagation of the culture biologically.

I knew plenty of gay soldiers.  So did everyone else in the military. Some were meh, some were pretty decent, some were pretty good.

Are infertile heterosexuals threatening as well?
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Scout26

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #144 on: December 11, 2012, 11:41:34 AM »
<- Not a Christian.


The Cross has the blood of literally half the world at its feet.  The history of European expansion is by and large a history of subjugation to the cross. Entire civilizations wiped out.  The USSR couldn't even wipe out the Chechans.

I would guess that Christians are pikers when it comes to body counts.  Pretty sure Genghis Khan was not a Christian when he built his mountains of skulls.  There's growing evidence of various American Indian tribes "being disappeared" by folks like the Incas and Aztecs.  Read Sun Tzu and other histories of China and they were constantly killing each other, same with the Japanese until they got together to fight one another.  Rome had already slaughtered it's way to greatness and was on the downhill side when Jesus came on the scene.   Not much is known about Central and Eastern European groups/tribes as they were too busy hacking away at each other to write anything down.  Same with most of Africa.  And an (dis) honorable mention to Islam for hacking their way to gates of Vienna (why and where crescent rolls come from) spreading their (still popular) "convert or die" policy.

The fact is that Christianity does not have "the blood of literally half the world at it's feet."  Especially given what socialist countries did in the 20th century.   Christians were no better nor any worse then any other group of people that had a leader that said, "They have it.  We need it.  Let's go get it."
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HankB

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #145 on: December 11, 2012, 12:09:01 PM »
. . .  The fact is that Christianity does not have "the blood of literally half the world at it's feet."  Especially given what socialist countries did in the 20th century.   Christians were no better nor any worse then any other group of people that had a leader that said, "They have it.  We need it.  Let's go get it."
Also note that what is generally seen as Christianity's low point - the Spanish Inquisition, a thoroughly nasty time - grew out of the Reconquista at least in part as a backlash against theocratic Moslem rule of the Iberian Peninsula in the centuries after the Moorish invasion.
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MechAg94

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #146 on: December 11, 2012, 12:24:49 PM »
>Christianity gets blamed for a lot that has nothing to do with being Christian or what a Christian should be doing from even a casual perusal of the New Testament. Cultures that adopted and became "Christianized" can and have done very unChristian things.<

This is actually evidenced by something that has always seriously puzzled me...

Why is it all the big, bad cults* use Christian window dressing for their insanity? Seems that other faiths (wicca, quite notably) would be FAR easier to twist for cult use. However, every time another cult leader pops up in the news, he's claiming to be Christ reborn...




*I'm thinking Jonestown, Branch Davidians, and suchlike
Simple to me.  To build a following, you need converts.  You won't get many impressionable young adults coming around if you advertise yourself as a Satan worshiping cult. 
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MechAg94

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #147 on: December 11, 2012, 12:28:55 PM »
<- Not a Christian.


I would guess that Christians are pikers when it comes to body counts.  Pretty sure Genghis Khan was not a Christian when he built his mountains of skulls.  There's growing evidence of various American Indian tribes "being disappeared" by folks like the Incas and Aztecs.  Read Sun Tzu and other histories of China and they were constantly killing each other, same with the Japanese until they got together to fight one another.  Rome had already slaughtered it's way to greatness and was on the downhill side when Jesus came on the scene.   Not much is known about Central and Eastern European groups/tribes as they were too busy hacking away at each other to write anything down.  Same with most of Africa.  And an (dis) honorable mention to Islam for hacking their way to gates of Vienna (why and where crescent rolls come from) spreading their (still popular) "convert or die" policy.

The fact is that Christianity does not have "the blood of literally half the world at it's feet."  Especially given what socialist countries did in the 20th century.   Christians were no better nor any worse then any other group of people that had a leader that said, "They have it.  We need it.  Let's go get it."
I also think it is questionable to blame Christianity for a lot of those wars when it was just an excuse for Nobility and Church leaders seeking more power and control (same as in countless non-christian nations).  Such things were some of the reasons why people came to the new world to get away from that stuff. 
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longeyes

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #148 on: December 11, 2012, 12:47:09 PM »
I knew plenty of gay soldiers.  So did everyone else in the military. Some were meh, some were pretty decent, some were pretty good.

Are infertile heterosexuals threatening as well?

That was my point:  It comes down to character, to primal values; not per se to sexual practices and proclivities.

To your question... All societies that fail to reproduce are obviously jeopardizing themselves.  So are societies that are internally fragile in terms of their national identity.  This is about the replication of values.
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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #149 on: December 11, 2012, 02:35:23 PM »
>Christianity gets blamed for a lot that has nothing to do with being Christian or what a Christian should be doing from even a casual perusal of the New Testament. Cultures that adopted and became "Christianized" can and have done very unChristian things.<

This is actually evidenced by something that has always seriously puzzled me...

Why is it all the big, bad cults* use Christian window dressing for their insanity? Seems that other faiths (wicca, quite notably) would be FAR easier to twist for cult use. However, every time another cult leader pops up in the news, he's claiming to be Christ reborn...

*I'm thinking Jonestown, Branch Davidians, and suchlike

Biased selection.  We don't see the "big bad cults" derived from Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism, because they're mostly somewhere far away.

Very many feel the need to to claim Jesus for their own use.

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