Author Topic: School Shooting at CT Elementary School  (Read 54408 times)

birdman

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #200 on: December 17, 2012, 08:35:33 PM »
Thanks very much for that, scout, although reading it has raised more questions for me.  It seems like, while he was withdrawn, socially awkward, etc., there's nothing in that piece that points to a dramatic or violent psychological or personality disorder.  I'm a layman when it comes to psychology, though, and while I know a couple of people with high-functioning autism and Asperger's, I'm not familiar enough with them to know if 1) they can progress along a spectrum to manifest as violent, or 2) if having autism/Asperger's makes it more difficult to diagnose and/or treat a violent mental problem.

Is there anyone with experience in the above who could enlighten me?

To the best of my knowledge (and personal experience) autistics, if violent at all, do so not consciously, and mainly to themselves (banging head, etc for the bad cases).  Diagnosis of other issues...hmm... Well given that high functioning types are extremely logical, and don't really hide anything, I would say it probably makes it easier to see if they are violent.  But in general, to the best of my knowledge, there is minimal correlation between true autism and violent acts against others, they don't think that way.

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #201 on: December 17, 2012, 09:43:57 PM »
Thanks very much for that, scout, although reading it has raised more questions for me.  It seems like, while he was withdrawn, socially awkward, etc., there's nothing in that piece that points to a dramatic or violent psychological or personality disorder.  I'm a layman when it comes to psychology, though, and while I know a couple of people with high-functioning autism and Asperger's, I'm not familiar enough with them to know if 1) they can progress along a spectrum to manifest as violent, or 2) if having autism/Asperger's makes it more difficult to diagnose and/or treat a violent mental problem.

Is there anyone with experience in the above who could enlighten me?

From what I have seen, the answer to both your questions is yes. 
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birdman

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #202 on: December 17, 2012, 09:52:37 PM »
From what I have seen, the answer to both your questions is yes. 

From what I've seen, I don't agree.

SteveS

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #203 on: December 17, 2012, 10:15:32 PM »
From what I have seen in the research (some of it conflicting) is that there are issues with violence in people  with violence, including some studies that show higher levels of domestic violence. One of the problems is an inability of some people with aspergers to understand and appreciate the feelings of others. I guess a better answer would be no to 1 and Yes to 2. They can be very hard to treat, IMO, though I will admit that developmental delays was not my specialty.
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seeker_two

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #204 on: December 17, 2012, 10:44:20 PM »
From my own observations, people with Asperger's tend to be impulsive in their rare instances of violent behavior and are not well-organized enough to plan & carry out something like this incident. I'm wondering if he had another diagnosis (paranoid schitzophrenia, for example) that may have contributed.
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birdman

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #205 on: December 17, 2012, 10:53:53 PM »
From what I have seen in the research (some of it conflicting) is that there are issues with violence in people  with violence, including some studies that show higher levels of domestic violence. One of the problems is an inability of some people with aspergers to understand and appreciate the feelings of others. I guess a better answer would be no to 1 and Yes to 2. They can be very hard to treat, IMO, though I will admit that developmental delays was not my specialty.

Treat for THEIR problems, but the question was does it make it difficult to diagnose OTHER problems.

Or, to out a slightly different spin on this, and put in perspective why I'm touchy about this one, ill rephrase the above:

Treat for OUR problems.  Tread lightly please.

Strings

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #206 on: December 17, 2012, 11:44:57 PM »
I see no reason why one problem (autism) couldn't act as "camouflage" for another (violent tendencies), if the first problem is severe enough.

Obviously I'm not a mental-health professional. But it's fairly easy to see the possibility.

Also: we don't know what other circumstances existed. There could have been other factors (say, illegal drugs*) that caused an unforeseen shift in personality...

* not to say I think he was doing such. Just remembering my brother when he'd smoke pot, which everyone claims "just mellows people out". He would get belligerent and violent
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Perd Hapley

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #207 on: December 17, 2012, 11:51:50 PM »
* not to say I think he was doing such. Just remembering my brother when he'd smoke pot, which everyone claims "just mellows people out". He would get belligerent and violent


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Strings

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #208 on: December 18, 2012, 12:04:15 AM »
*shrug*

It's a well-known fact that not every person is going to react the same way to a drug (legal or illegal).

If the perp had a known psychological issue, then it;s entirely possible he was on some form of drug, if not several. Could VERY easily have created a time bomb, if you will.

How do you address that issue? You really can't, since there's no way of predicting the problem
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SteveS

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #209 on: December 18, 2012, 12:24:16 AM »
Treat for THEIR problems, but the question was does it make it difficult to diagnose OTHER problems.

Or, to out a slightly different spin on this, and put in perspective why I'm touchy about this one, ill rephrase the above:

Treat for OUR problems.  Tread lightly please.

What do you mean? 

I would say that a person with Aspergers and some other disorder could be difficult to treat, but it would depend entirely on what it was and the individual in question.


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zxcvbob

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #210 on: December 18, 2012, 12:41:56 AM »
What do you mean? 

I assume he means he has Asperger's (or a different high-functioning form of autism), or PTSD, or some other "mental defect", and doesn't like being lumped in the same group as homicidal maniacs, or a target for having any of his civil rights revoked without due process.

I don't think it'd be hard to find a psychiatrist somewhere who would claim that anyone who wants to purchase a firearm is delusional at best ad probably crazy, and disqualified from owning one.  That's one of the slippery slopes we are on; make everybody a prohibited person (except high-ranking government employees and their cronies, of course.)  Guns are perfectly legal, you just can't have one.
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ArfinGreebly

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #211 on: December 18, 2012, 01:04:27 AM »

I assume he means he has Asperger's (or a different high-functioning form of autism), or PTSD, or some other "mental defect", and doesn't like being lumped in the same group as homicidal maniacs, or a target for having any of his civil rights revoked without due process.

I don't think it'd be hard to find a psychiatrist somewhere who would claim that anyone who wants to purchase a firearm is delusional at best ad probably crazy, and disqualified from owning one.  That's one of the slippery slopes we are on; make everybody a prohibited person (except high-ranking government employees and their cronies, of course.)  Guns are perfectly legal, you just can't have one.


Periodically, over the last five or six years, I've warned of the "mental health" gambit.

And now I'm watching as one pundit after another offers "better mental health monitoring" as an "alternative" to more gun control.

Fabulous.  Complete finesse of constitutional protections.  No accountability.  Doesn't matter how much you spend on an attorney, you can't argue "medicine" with a doctor.

Whatever you do regarding the Second Amendment, don't fall for the "mental health" gambit.
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AJ Dual

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #212 on: December 18, 2012, 01:13:56 AM »
A common thread among most, but not all of the spree shooters is a feeling of being an outsider, and having a very low social status in the microcosm of school. Often the people are so bad off that they can't even get membership or become important in the lowest status groups, goths, geeks, the AV squad... whatever.

They are usually trying to lash out at communities or institutions, not so much at particular individuals. Underneath the superficial motivations, or the ideological trappings the shooters may give, if any, it's the planning of the attack and keeping the secret from the rest of us becomes the only empowering thing in their life. And carrying it out becomes all they have. Actual execution of their plans often are unsatisfying, and that's why most mass shooters have several weapons and large supplies of ammo they never even wind up using. Despite how far gone they are, most of these shooters still need to create barrier mechanisms, masks, disguises, costumes, even earplugs to try and distance themselves from personal interactions. And as noted, most commit suicide as soon as any significant opposition presents itself.    

Aspergers could certainly be the nucleus of that, creating insurmountable social interaction problems that lead to the downward spiral, however, just as millions of other introverted people, outcast people, unpopular people didn't commit a mass killing and never will, so did the vast 99.999% majority of people with Aspergers or other spectrum disorders.

Mass killings/attacks actually seem to happen with about the same frequency per-capita in Europe, and parts of Asia (like the large number of Chinese school-knifings...) and America with it's RKBA is not really an outlier, in frequency of mass killings, or average number of victims at all.

The biggest factor in preventing mass shootings/spree killings is like many things, often unsatisfyingly simple, but difficult to execute at the same time. It's a matter of friends (if any) family, and mental health workers catching these people in the internalized hidden planning stage and intervening. Trying to catch these people at the NICS portion of "the process" is way too late. And will victimize thousands, maybe millions of people who are a threat to no one. And of course, someone could bypass NICS completely by theft or legal/illegal private sales.
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SteveS

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #213 on: December 18, 2012, 06:10:24 AM »
Periodically, over the last five or six years, I've warned of the "mental health" gambit.

And now I'm watching as one pundit after another offers "better mental health monitoring" as an "alternative" to more gun control.

Fabulous.  Complete finesse of constitutional protections.  No accountability.  Doesn't matter how much you spend on an attorney, you can't argue "medicine" with a doctor.

Whatever you do regarding the Second Amendment, don't fall for the "mental health" gambit.

I agree. We should be wary of this. The problem is that the people that are likely to write these bills are not going to know much about mental illness and will likely be way to broad.
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280plus

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #214 on: December 18, 2012, 07:37:47 AM »
I changed one little thing but best take ever. I'm going to share this with a few people.
A common thread among most, but not all of the spree shooters is a feeling of being an outsider, and having a very low social status in the microcosm of school. Often the people are so bad off that they can't even get membership or become important in the lowest status groups, goths, geeks, the AV squad... whatever.

They are usually trying to lash out at communities or institutions, not so much at particular individuals. Underneath the superficial motivations, or the ideological trappings the shooters may give, if any, it's the planning of the attack and keeping the secret from the rest of us becomes the only empowering thing in their life. And carrying it out becomes all they have. Actual execution of their plans often are unsatisfying, and that's why most mass shooters have several weapons and large supplies of ammo they never even wind up using. Despite how far gone they are, most of these shooters still need to create barrier mechanisms, masks, disguises, costumes, even earplugs to try and distance themselves from personal interactions. And as noted, most commit suicide as soon as any significant opposition presents itself.    

Aspergers could certainly be the nucleus of that, creating insurmountable social interaction problems that lead to the downward spiral, however, just as millions of other introverted people, outcast people, unpopular people didn't commit a mass killing and never will, so did the vast 99.999% majority of people with Aspergers or other spectrum disorders.

Mass killings/attacks actually seem to happen with about the same frequency per-capita in Europe, and parts of Asia (like the large number of Chinese school-knifings...) and America with it's RKBA is not really an outlier, in frequency of mass killings, or average number of victims at all.

The biggest factor in preventing mass shootings/spree killings is like many things, often unsatisfyingly simple, but difficult to execute at the same time. It's a matter of friends (if any) family, and mental health workers catching these people in the internalized hidden planning stage and intervening. Trying to catch these people at the NICS portion of "the process" is way too late. And will victimize thousands, maybe millions of people who are a threat to no one. And of course, someone could bypass NICS completely by theft or legal/illegal private sales.
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birdman

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #215 on: December 18, 2012, 09:20:34 AM »
What do you mean? 

I would say that a person with Aspergers and some other disorder could be difficult to treat, but it would depend entirely on what it was and the individual in question.




What I mean is that people who have forms of HFA or aspergers, while potentially difficult to treat FOR THE ISSUES OF THAT DISORDER (since it isn't technically a problem of the psyche like depression, but rather an physical neurological issue like brain chemistry or wiring) tend to be extremely logical, and in nearly all cases effectively incapable of hiding feelings or behaviors...most typically, these people are seen as having virtually no tact, are "too open" about their own feelings, etc.

So what I mean is since the original second question that you said "yes" to was if HFA or aspergers could make it difficult to diagnose or treat OTHER problems that are psychological, I believe the answer to be "no", as if anything, other issues (depression, psychosis, etc) are likely to be MORE obvious. 

The same thing that makes those folks seemingly incapable of reliably recognizing emotions in others also makes their own emotions difficult to hide, "they wear their emotions on their sleeve" is a common thread--hiding ones emotions or feelings requires the person to have the ability to instinctively recognize emotions in others.

Now, truly autistic (NOT HFA or aspergers) is a different story, given the severe communication difficulties that are the fundamental outward symptom, it is difficult to diagnose other issues, but not because they are hiding them, but because they can't communicate anything.  There the outward signs of anger, sadness, etc. are extremely magnified, but present as an uncoordinated physical response (near catatonic states, head banging, screaming, etc.) not as planned conscious activities like attacking others--it's more personal fight or flight.

The root issue is that it is in fact a spectrum, but at both ends of the spectrum, while the issues are difficult to treat, they either prevent the type of coordinated attack others behavior people are attempting to associate here, or make the internal emotions VERY apparent, so recognition of psychological disorders is likely easier, (for HFA) not harder.

It's kind of like lying...in order to effectively lie, you also need to be somewhat capable of recognizing lying.  It's why people with sociopathic tendencies are also extremely good at both hiding those tendencies, and recognizing them in others.   You need to be empathetic in order to hide ones own feelings, and it is quite well recognized that the dominant symptom that can present in most spectrum disorders is an apparent lack of empathy.

My points remain:
1. Violence of the type of concern here in spectrum disorders is either impossible or extremely unlikely unless coupled with other psychological disorders, and if it is represented in severe autistic cases, it effectively never takes the form of coordinated assault, but rather a physical "get away from me" defensive or self-destructive action.  Most folks tend to be very introverted because they feel that it is impossible to interact without "hurting" the FEELINGS of others (eg being tactless, and then analytically realizing that their words created negative feelings in others), so they tend to withdraw rather than be seen as broken.

2. Because of the inability to recognize emotion, it is usually easy to see it in these folks, as they are unlikely to be able to hide it, thus in HFA cases, it is not more difficult to recognize other psychological problems.  In severe autistic cases, it IS more difficult to recognize them verbally, but again that's rooted in a communication problem, and any emotions are EASY to see in actual behavior.  So what I mean is its likely harder to diagnose psychological problems in NORMAL people than in HFA people, because normal people know how to hide it.

In any case, the obsessive aspects of HFA make concealment of anything extremely difficult...if an HFA person is obsessed with causing harm, they will be VERY obsessed, and likely (without their knowledge) be VERY open about their feelings or intentions.  Remember, these are people who "talk without listening or caring if you are listening".

birdman

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #216 on: December 18, 2012, 09:26:41 AM »
I assume he means he has Asperger's (or a different high-functioning form of autism), or PTSD, or some other "mental defect", and doesn't like being lumped in the same group as homicidal maniacs, or a target for having any of his civil rights revoked without due process.

I don't think it'd be hard to find a psychiatrist somewhere who would claim that anyone who wants to purchase a firearm is delusional at best ad probably crazy, and disqualified from owning one.  That's one of the slippery slopes we are on; make everybody a prohibited person (except high-ranking government employees and their cronies, of course.)  Guns are perfectly legal, you just can't have one.

What I mean is EVERYONE has at some point, however brief, due to interaction or life events exhibited psychosocial traits that point to any number of "disqualifying" disorders.  Seven stages of grief anyone?  Isn't one of them anger?

Take a person who had a friend murdered or raped, and examine them at their worst moment of anger.

The problem with this isn't just the slippery slope, the problem is that EVERYONE exhibits negative psychosocial traits at some point, and so people need to be really careful about how "diagnoses" are applied.  The brain and psyche are plastic, and always changing.

280plus

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #217 on: December 18, 2012, 09:32:27 AM »
I have a plastic brain. That explains everything! Thanks birdman!.  ;)
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SteveS

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #218 on: December 18, 2012, 10:12:45 AM »
The problem with this isn't just the slippery slope, the problem is that EVERYONE exhibits negative psychosocial traits at some point, and so people need to be really careful about how "diagnoses" are applied.  The brain and psyche are plastic, and always changing.

I agree.  If you look at most diagnostic criteria, you will find that many people don't satisfy the requirements.  Depression requires a significant duration.  Many people that claim to be depressed may be said, but they are not "depressed."
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lee n. field

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #219 on: December 18, 2012, 10:21:25 AM »
Mass killings/attacks actually seem to happen with about the same frequency per-capita in Europe, and parts of Asia (like the large number of Chinese school-knifings...) and America with it's RKBA is not really an outlier, in frequency of mass killings, or average number of victims at all.

Can you point me to documentation to support that.
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zxcvbob

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #220 on: December 18, 2012, 11:28:00 AM »
I have a plastic brain. That explains everything! Thanks birdman!.  ;)

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #221 on: December 18, 2012, 02:22:14 PM »
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/18/police-find-no-evidence-connecticut-gunman-was-on-medication/?intcmp=trending

We have had some comments about the merits and demerits of psychology and psychotropic medications as they relate to this case.  Of note, a search of the home did not reveal that Mr. Lanza was taking any medication.  I am sure that toxicology tests are also being done, and it will be interesting to see if those results are released.
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280plus

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #222 on: December 18, 2012, 03:58:09 PM »
Is it recyclable?  


Wow, I don't know. One can only hope!  :cool:
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ArfinGreebly

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #223 on: December 18, 2012, 05:16:14 PM »

Musing . . .

What about NORMAL people?

Hmmm.  Probably should be its own thread.

Whenever I see a discussion of psychiatry or psychology, the word "diagnose" (or "diagnosis") inevitably joins the stream.

Why is it I never see discussions of application for normal people?

Kids, most of them anyway, are pretty much normal people, and yet teachers have to take [n] credits of psych sciences as part of their curriculum for certification.

Are they supposed to "diagnose" something?  Or is it that they are supposed to have some sort of manipulative advantage over their charges?

Are they using the subject(s) to improve children's ability to think or study?  Is that why the overwhelming trend for SAT scores is a rising graph?    ;/

What's the psych sciences strategy for normal people?  Or is the assumption that, if you're involved on the "client" side you're pretty much no longer classified as "normal?"
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280plus

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Re: School Shooting at CT Elementary School
« Reply #224 on: December 18, 2012, 05:59:13 PM »
psych studies, in terms of teaching, pertain more to you understanding what's going on in the minds of the avg kid in the grade group you teach. Can that aid you in manipulating them. Possibly. But the bigger question becomes, will you use this power for good or evil?  :O

 [popcorn]
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