Author Topic: NRA Prediction Thread  (Read 20969 times)

makattak

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Re: NRA Prediction Thread
« Reply #75 on: December 21, 2012, 12:19:12 PM »
Statement from the NRA.

http://home.nra.org/iphone.aspx

Calling for "an" armed guard in every school. Doesn't seem like that good a plan to me, but they aren't caving.

If you'll note, that was a short term solution. He said "this is something we can do now."

The long term solution was helping every school set up a security and response plan with the "School Shield" initiative or whatever it was called.

Honestly, I thought that blaming movies and video games was wrong, as well, but I enjoyed the assault on the media and Hollywood. If they wish to act like enemies, treat them as such.
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SteveS

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Re: NRA Prediction Thread
« Reply #76 on: December 21, 2012, 12:25:17 PM »

This wasn't a guardianship hearing, it was for continued hospitalization.

I wasn't there, and I'm not sure of the legal qualification but they called it a hearing and a judge.   =(

Gotcha.  Sounds like some kind of administrative hearing. 
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Re: NRA Prediction Thread
« Reply #77 on: December 21, 2012, 12:28:28 PM »
Gotcha.  Sounds like some kind of administrative hearing. 

And no doubt in the NICS database by now  =(
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longeyes

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Re: NRA Prediction Thread
« Reply #78 on: December 21, 2012, 01:00:09 PM »
The problem with movies and videogames comes back to the fact that we now live in a society largely based on fantasy, all kinds, including, now, our very economy.  Acting out through fantasy is not inherently a bad thing--kids do it through fairy tales--but when your only options for a full life are circumscribed within a fantasy world the problems begin.  Ignoring what has been perpetrated on this culture is a mistake.  We have needed to name names for a long time.

The problem with the NRA is not what they propose, it's that this very culture (see above) now views them--and by extension US--as demons worse than the Taliban or the Nazis.  Welcome to the culture of persecution.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: NRA Prediction Thread
« Reply #79 on: December 21, 2012, 01:52:38 PM »
you get to see some of the really far out whack jobs there

i lived in dc and worked on college campuses    i've got a rogues gallery
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Balog

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Re: NRA Prediction Thread
« Reply #80 on: December 21, 2012, 02:30:31 PM »
So LaPierre wants a massive expansion of the police state, blames the 1st Amendment, and wants a national registry of people to deprive of their liberty. Awesome. So every combat vet who's been screened and gotten diagnosed with some degree of PTSD (ie most of us), and the new DSM that says you're clinically depressed if you grieve the death of a lived one more than a few days millions and millions of folks would lose their rights and the NRA is cool with it.

I was going to renew my membership for multiple years and buy one for my infant daughter. But I refuse to support these idiots after that.
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Scout26

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Re: NRA Prediction Thread
« Reply #81 on: December 21, 2012, 02:47:59 PM »
So LaPierre wants a massive expansion of the police state, blames the 1st Amendment, and wants a national registry of people to deprive of their liberty. Awesome. So every combat vet who's been screened and gotten diagnosed with some degree of PTSD (ie most of us), and the new DSM that says you're clinically depressed if you grieve the death of a lived one more than a few days millions and millions of folks would lose their rights and the NRA is cool with it.

I was going to renew my membership for multiple years and buy one for my infant daughter. But I refuse to support these idiots after that.

Over-react much?

Have we not discussed putting armed guards/police in schools here on APS.  (IIRC, the original proposal that floated around the interwebz was for unemployed Veterans to serve as the guards.)   I think we can all agree that first thing that everyone wants when a bad guy with a gun shows up is for a good guy with a gun to be right there, right freakin' NOW! 

It didn't hear any call for removing adjudication* from the mental health process to commit someone or strip them of their 2A (among other) rights. 

And putting some blame on video games/Hollywood/The MSM for glamorizing mass murderers puts them on the defensive.

The most important part of fighting the battle is picking and then setting the battlefield.   If we can change the debate to armed police officers in schools instead of AWB's, Magazine bans, outright gun bans and/or confiscations, then we've won.


And besides, they are correct.  We need to harden the targets.  If I was an Islamic terrorist, I'd sure as hell be paying attention.



*Adjudication- A hearing before a judge with the defendant/respondent having proper legal counsel.
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longeyes

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Re: NRA Prediction Thread
« Reply #82 on: December 21, 2012, 02:54:22 PM »
Caution is called for, but certainly La Pierre is trying to "deflect the conversation" in a smart way.  Hardening our schools is a prudent proposal that might, who knows, gain traction.
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SteveS

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Re: NRA Prediction Thread
« Reply #83 on: December 21, 2012, 02:54:34 PM »
And no doubt in the NICS database by now  =(

I don't know. Some states don't provide mental health info to NICS.
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lupinus

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Re: NRA Prediction Thread
« Reply #84 on: December 21, 2012, 02:58:21 PM »
I'd say they did alright. Better then a expected, but far from a slam dunk.

To heavy on the "trained professional" and the "eeevvviiiilll video games!" IMO.

Police or veterans in schools is a big step in the right direction that gun free zones aren't the answer. But, the "trained professional" thing erks me. Baby step maybe, but I'd prefer more then one line near the end of the press release giving the idea just removing the gun free zone is a big step in the right direction.

As for the video games, maybe Scout has a point. But not video game or movie in the world, or quantity of them, is going to MAKE someone batshit crazy if they weren't batshit crazy to begin with.

So yeah, some good points made in a fairly measured response. Could have been a little better, could have been a hell of a lot worse.
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Balog

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Re: NRA Prediction Thread
« Reply #85 on: December 21, 2012, 03:31:42 PM »
Over-react much?

Have we not discussed putting armed guards/police in schools here on APS.  (IIRC, the original proposal that floated around the interwebz was for unemployed Veterans to serve as the guards.)   I think we can all agree that first thing that everyone wants when a bad guy with a gun shows up is for a good guy with a gun to be right there, right freakin' NOW! 

It didn't hear any call for removing adjudication* from the mental health process to commit someone or strip them of their 2A (among other) rights. 

And putting some blame on video games/Hollywood/The MSM for glamorizing mass murderers puts them on the defensive.

The most important part of fighting the battle is picking and then setting the battlefield.   If we can change the debate to armed police officers in schools instead of AWB's, Magazine bans, outright gun bans and/or confiscations, then we've won.


And besides, they are correct.  We need to harden the targets.  If I was an Islamic terrorist, I'd sure as hell be paying attention.



*Adjudication- A hearing before a judge with the defendant/respondent having proper legal counsel.

Rationalize much?

1. TSA'ing our schools would be a massive waste of time and money as well as furthering the indoctrination of the police state as a good thing.
2. Mental health is the camel's nose under the tent that will make the 2nd irrelevant. We as a society are moving closer to everyone being diagnosable with something. And since the ATF is in charge of implementing regulations, all it takes is one vague line in a "common sense" NRA supported bill and suddenly you can't own guns anymore.
3. You like them attacking the 1st Amendment because what now? Any thought crime legislation will hit the alternative media that contradicts the official narrative, not Hollywood.
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Re: NRA Prediction Thread
« Reply #86 on: December 21, 2012, 03:42:26 PM »
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longeyes

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Re: NRA Prediction Thread
« Reply #87 on: December 21, 2012, 03:52:59 PM »
Rationalize much?

1. TSA'ing our schools would be a massive waste of time and money as well as furthering the indoctrination of the police state as a good thing.
2. Mental health is the camel's nose under the tent that will make the 2nd irrelevant. We as a society are moving closer to everyone being diagnosable with something. And since the ATF is in charge of implementing regulations, all it takes is one vague line in a "common sense" NRA supported bill and suddenly you can't own guns anymore.
3. You like them attacking the 1st Amendment because what now? Any thought crime legislation will hit the alternative media that contradicts the official narrative, not Hollywood.

I think you are right on two and three but not on one. What is wrong with providing schools with armed protection?
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Re: NRA Prediction Thread
« Reply #88 on: December 21, 2012, 03:58:16 PM »

This wasn't a guardianship hearing, it was for continued hospitalization.

I wasn't there, and I'm not sure of the legal qualification but they called it a hearing and a judge.   =(

Was this a psych facility, and the facility was looking to extend an involuntary committment?  I have been at those sort of hearings, and they are generally held right there at the facility because it is easier and less stressful to the patient.  I suppose it depends on your jurisdiction, but I have certainly seen counsel there representing the patient. 
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Scout26

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Re: NRA Prediction Thread
« Reply #89 on: December 21, 2012, 04:24:29 PM »
Rationalize much?

1. TSA'ing our schools would be a massive waste of time and money as well as furthering the indoctrination of the police state as a good thing.
2. Mental health is the camel's nose under the tent that will make the 2nd irrelevant. We as a society are moving closer to everyone being diagnosable with something. And since the ATF is in charge of implementing regulations, all it takes is one vague line in a "common sense" NRA supported bill and suddenly you can't own guns anymore.
3. You like them attacking the 1st Amendment because what now? Any thought crime legislation will hit the alternative media that contradicts the official narrative, not Hollywood.

Oh sweet flaming Jesus on a Pogo Stick.

1.  I didn't hear the NRA call for metal detectors, "people sniffers", Porn-o-scopes, or even having the little tykes remove their shoes before entering their school.  So where did you get "TSA'ing our schools"?  I've gone back and re-read what Wayne La Pierre said.   "armed security", "armed police officers", "Armed, trained, qualified school security personnel".  

2.  Last I checked Mental Health is a disqualifying disability.  But you have to be adjudicated.  I didn't hear a call to change that process.  You probably don't remember when GOA was going on and on about how some bill the NRA endorsed was going to take all Vet's 2A rights from them.  But, when actually reading the bill, there was nothing of the sort in there.  In fact, it restored the right so thousands of vets that had been put in the NICS database during the Clinton administration, without being adjudicated.  There isn't a person that would not agree that Lanza, the Aurora movie guy, Gabby Giffords shooter, VA Tech shooter, or any other of the mass shooters were not Coo-Coo for Cocoa Puffs.  In fact people who were very familiar with them all stated that they thought they "needed help."  Yet, they did nothing to get them that help.   If someone is that broken, they need family, friends, teachers, etc to step in and get them help and/or treatment and if that means having them adjudicated as "Mentally Defective", then so be it, if it gets them the help they need.

3.  I didn't hear them call for a repeal of the 1st Amendment.  I heard them shame the MSM for their complicity:
Quote
And throughout it all, too many in our national media … their corporate owners … and their stockholders … act as silent enablers, if not complicit co-conspirators. Rather than face their own moral failings, the media demonize lawful gun owners, amplify their cries for more laws and fill the national debate with misinformation and dishonest thinking that only delay meaningful action and all but guarantee that the next atrocity is only a news cycle away.  
 

Finally, I haven't seen a written bill on what they propose.  However, I'd be much more willing to bet that an NRA bill does more to protect ALL my rights, then  one written by Joe Biden and friends.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: NRA Prediction Thread
« Reply #90 on: December 21, 2012, 04:47:12 PM »
This is just the NRA being a single-issue advocacy group - protect the guns; screw all else.

I'll keep this thread in mind the next time someone complains that the NRA should be single-issue.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: NRA Prediction Thread
« Reply #91 on: December 21, 2012, 05:03:29 PM »
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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MicroBalrog

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Re: NRA Prediction Thread
« Reply #92 on: December 21, 2012, 05:10:39 PM »
The fact is we do not need to get into a shouting match with the Left.

If the liberals scream that the world is ending because of guns, and the conservatives scream the world is ending because of video games and a lack of 'tracking the mentally ill' and there's nobody to say that the world is not ending, that's not going to be good for liberty.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: NRA Prediction Thread
« Reply #93 on: December 21, 2012, 05:12:16 PM »
doesn't goa advertise on reason?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Tallpine

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Re: NRA Prediction Thread
« Reply #94 on: December 21, 2012, 05:19:19 PM »
Quote
the "trained professional" thing erks me

Me too  =(


Was this a psych facility, and the facility was looking to extend an involuntary committment?  I have been at those sort of hearings, and they are generally held right there at the facility because it is easier and less stressful to the patient.  I suppose it depends on your jurisdiction, but I have certainly seen counsel there representing the patient.  

The person in question was not totally conscious when presented for treatment, so it was really neither voluntary nor involuntary.

They don't automatically take away your rights when you have a head injury and have to be hospitalized, so I don't know why it works that way when there is some other sort of event.

I don't remember what the deal was with counsel.  I think they threatened to make it way worse if the person sought legal representation.  It sounded pretty much like a kangaroo court to me.

Anyway, it doesn't seem right that someone is basically considered "incurable" by the law, if they ever seek treatment for any sort of serious MH issue.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: NRA Prediction Thread
« Reply #95 on: December 21, 2012, 05:49:49 PM »
doesn't goa advertise on reason?

Why, you have my argument all refuted.
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Re: NRA Prediction Thread
« Reply #96 on: December 21, 2012, 06:19:12 PM »
The NRA did much better then I expected.  Plenty I can take issue with, but ill take it.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: NRA Prediction Thread
« Reply #97 on: December 21, 2012, 06:19:40 PM »
Why, you have my argument all refuted.


you had an argument?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MicroBalrog

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Re: NRA Prediction Thread
« Reply #98 on: December 21, 2012, 06:26:13 PM »
So, what is wrong about what I said or linked to?

Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: NRA Prediction Thread
« Reply #99 on: December 21, 2012, 07:12:29 PM »
So, what is wrong about what I said or linked to?



the description of the nra's remarks as hysteria.its similar to the lefts use of racist.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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