Author Topic: Why are there no men in Jane Austin's England?  (Read 7699 times)

makattak

  • Dark Lord of the Cis
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,022
Why are there no men in Jane Austin's England?
« on: December 31, 2012, 11:22:35 PM »
I did not read Pride and Prejudice or the Sense and Sensibility as a child, and I have always felt a bit alienated from the fandom surrounding them. Now I think I know why: Austin seems to have wiped men off the face of England. I suppose it’s understandable that a story in which the primary activity seems to be pining away and dreaming about Romance — although it’s not as though Austin had to hew to historical accuracy when she created her fantastical England. The problem is one of biological accuracy. Austin’s characters defy the basics of reproduction: female mothers birth female daughters. If there are any fathers or sons, uncles or nephews, they make no appearances. Worse, all the romance she tries to create seems to have no aim. She clearly doesn’t portray any lesbian relationships, but every female character seems to be interested in romance. How can you even have romance without a man?

And then there is the argument that none of this should matter, that it’s not just fiction but romance after all. But Joe Wright, the director of Pride and Prejudice, has said, “To me, romance should be as real as possible. I don’t subscribe to the notion that because it’s fiction it should be unrealistic. I think you have to have a sense of belief in the relationship that you’re going into, and the levels of detail are very important.” I should think that would include — especially in an extended romance saga — something as important as the perpetuation of species, whether starry-eyed or not.

http://ideas.time.com/2012/12/31/the-hobbit-why-are-there-no-women-in-tolkiens-world

[Edit: fixed spelling to placate fistful, even though Miss Austen really wasn't the point... some of you may not have noticed the link at the bottom of my post. Edited again to misspell her name because complete unfamiliarity with her work was the point. ]
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 01:29:15 AM by makattak »
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 62,152
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Why are there no men in Jane Austin's England?
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2013, 12:33:09 AM »
Her name is Austen, not Austin.

Or maybe you were talking about some other writer, cause it sure sounds like it. What are you talking about?
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
--Thomas Jefferson

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: Why are there no men in Jane Austin's England?
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2013, 12:48:36 AM »
I finally read Pride and Prejudice a year or so ago. I kept reading expecting something of significance to happen, then the story was over.

Plenty of menmales in the book, fathers, cousins, uncles as well as snooty rich bastages and soldiers.

I'm still not sure if the E version I read wasn't missing several chapters wherein something of significance happens.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

zxcvbob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,498
Re: Why are there no men in Jane Austin's England?
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2013, 12:54:43 AM »
Wasn't there a "Mr. Darcy" character?  (not sure if he's really a male, or some kind of eunuch.)
"It's good, though..."

makattak

  • Dark Lord of the Cis
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,022
Re: Why are there no men in Jane Austen's England?
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2013, 01:10:51 AM »
No one is clicking the link, I see...
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 62,152
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Why are there no men in Jane Austin's England?
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2013, 02:46:08 AM »
Oh, no. I did not see what you did there.
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
--Thomas Jefferson

TechMan

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,562
  • Yes, your moderation has been outsourced.
Re: Why are there no men in Jane Austin's England?
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2013, 07:47:57 AM »
Read the link.  Wow she is an idiot.  Base you opinion on a movie/movies that are based on books that are 1728 pages (paperback) long.  It is impossible to capture everything from the books in the movies.  Oh and it is fantasy writing.
Quote
Hawkmoon - Never underestimate another person's capacity for stupidity. Any time you think someone can't possibly be that dumb ... they'll prove you wrong.

Bacon and Eggs - A day's work for a chicken; A lifetime commitment for a pig.
Stupidity will always be its own reward.
Bad decisions make good stories.

Quote
Viking - The problem with the modern world is that there aren't really any predators eating stupid people.

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: Why are there no men in Jane Austin's England?
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2013, 09:40:50 AM »
The hobbitz women were too busy making sammiches and doing dishes to be seen, let alone go off on adventures.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

Scout26

  • I'm a leaf on the wind.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,997
  • I spent a week in that town one night....
Re: Why are there no men in Jane Austin's England?
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2013, 09:55:21 AM »
British men of that time were out building an Empire.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

seeker_two

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,922
  • In short, most intelligence is false.
Re: Why are there no men in Jane Austin's England?
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2013, 10:47:51 AM »
British men of that time were out building an Empire.

....and British women were lying back and thinking of England.
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

makattak

  • Dark Lord of the Cis
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,022
Re: Why are there no men in Jane Austin's England?
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2013, 12:35:46 PM »
For those not interested in clicking the link, a Time magazine blotter made the exact same nonsensical post as I did but claiming Tolkien's world lacked all women. Clearly she not only never read his works growing up, she also hasn't read it as an adult.

Feminists amaze me. I really shouldn't be surprised Time publishes completely ignorant things but I am in awe with how willing they are to display it.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 34,595
Re: Why are there no men in Jane Austin's England?
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2013, 01:20:13 PM »
For those not interested in clicking the link, a Time magazine blotter made the exact same nonsensical post as I did but claiming Tolkien's world lacked all women. Clearly she not only never read his works growing up, she also hasn't read it as an adult.

Feminists amaze me. I really shouldn't be surprised Time publishes completely ignorant things but I am in awe with how willing they are to display it.
Why read the article.  I can see from the title and first paragraph that it is ignorant.  

I think you might be getting a bit too subtle or something.  Oh well, back to watching football.  "Where are all the women in football?"   =D
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

White Horseradish

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,792
Re: Why are there no men in Jane Austin's England?
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2013, 01:37:36 PM »
I can't stand Jane Austen's prattle. Her books are essentially soap operas before TV. And not even good soap operas. I have no idea why she is so popular. Any one of the Bronte sisters is much better fare if you are interested in that sort of drama.
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

Robert A Heinlein

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Why are there no men in Jane Austin's England?
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2013, 05:18:36 PM »
The movie version of version of S&S starred Hugh Grant and Alan Rickman.

 ???
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

BlueStarLizzard

  • Queen of the Cislords
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,039
  • Oh please, nobody died last time...
Re: Why are there no men in Jane Austin's England?
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2013, 06:47:10 PM »
*shrug*

Tolkin really doesn't have anything in the way of major female characters. He's got a couple female elves that show up and whatnot, but none of his "heros" are female.

It's not something I think of as offensive. He's a male fantasy writter from another generation. Most male authors do have more major male characters then female, while most female authors have more major female characters, and the primary character is almost always the same sex as the writter.
Which is not nessasarly a bad thing. A lot of times when I read a about a main character written by the oppisite sex, the character falls flat or is a bit odd. I don't think that's sexism, just an example of the difficults in writting fictional characters.

I havn't ever read Austen, but I have read a lot about that period, other novels set in that period and a LOT of romance.
And no, men are not generally the primary character, nor do most authors take much time devolping the few male characters (hell, some don't take any time devolping the female characters)
I think those books set in the Regency period and Victorian era can get away with it a lot more, simply because the sexes were highly segregated and the society was so stratified. Higher class young (unmarried) women didn't spend all that much time with men outside of their families and didn't spend too much more time with the ones they were related too. Exposure too "eligable bacholers" was highly regulated and observed.
Not that Austen was really a member of the society she wrote about (she was gentry, not nobility BIG DIFFRENCE)

As for why it was (and remains) so popular. Orginally, her books were quite scandolous. They were published annonamously and it was clear they were written by a women of the higher class, which was huge. Secondly, the books depicted actions, decisions and ideas that where not entirely welcome. Marry for love, instead of station and what you're parents want!?! OMG!!!
They remain popular because a.) They were a big deal when they first were released (and even books that suck can remain a big deal if they start off with a big enough bang) and b.) Because a large majority of women like fluffy, unrealistic romantic doggerly.
And before anyone pokes a fun at the b.) reason, I will point out that men seem to enjoy some pretty mindless novels of explosions, gunfighting and grabbing booty, so the sexes are still running even on brain fluff reading material.
"Okay, um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm angry, and I'm armed, so if you two have something that you need to work out --" -Malcolm Reynolds

TommyGunn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,956
  • Stuck in full auto since birth.
Re: Why are there no men in Jane Austin's England?
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2013, 07:51:15 PM »
Quote from: bluestarlizzard
And before anyone pokes a fun at the b.) reason, I will point out that men seem to enjoy some pretty mindless novels of explosions, gunfighting and grabbing booty, so the sexes are still running even on brain fluff reading material.

Hey!  Watch what you say about Tom Clancy novels!!!!!!!!!!!!! [tinfoil] :laugh: :angel:
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

makattak

  • Dark Lord of the Cis
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,022
Re: Why are there no men in Jane Austin's England?
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2013, 09:29:33 PM »
*shrug*

Tolkin really doesn't have anything in the way of major female characters. He's got a couple female elves that show up and whatnot, but none of his "heros" are female.

Actually, first, you are wrong about there being no female heroes in Tolkien's work. In the Lord of the Rings, Eowyn (not an elf) kills the Witch King of Angmar and Galadriel is the most powerful being (minus possibly Tom Bombadil) on the mortal areas of Middle Earth. Going further into Middle Earth, several women (mostly elves, but the Silmarillion is mostly about elves) feature as heroines.

Secondly, I wasn't actually critiquing Austen, I was making as nonsensical a post about Austen's work as the raging feminist at Time did about Tolkien. Men have roles to play in Austen's work, even if they are not the central characters. Replace "men" with "women" the same statement is true with Tolkien.

(I'm not actually arguing with you except for the "no female heroes" part. I just wanted to clarify that I don't actually have  problem with Austen's work. My original post was complete satire.)
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 62,152
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Why are there no men in Jane Austin's England?
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2013, 09:58:42 PM »
BSL,

IICR, Austen was a gentry-class writer, depicting mostly gentry characters. And it seems kind of odd to say that they were about marrying for love, instead of station. She says explicitly that marriages have to take into account factors like the compatibility of the marriage partners, AND practical concerns like money. I guess that could have been scandalous, though. I don't know.


I can't stand Jane Austen's prattle. Her books are essentially soap operas before TV. And not even good soap operas. I have no idea why she is so popular. Any one of the Bronte sisters is much better fare if you are interested in that sort of drama.


Austen's books don't take themselves nearly seriously enough to be soap opera fodder. More romantic comedy, if we're comparing it to video genres. I haven't read a good deal of Bronte, but I know Wuthering Heights was much more of a soap opera, in terms of being less realistic, and darker in tone.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 10:04:35 PM by fistful »
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
--Thomas Jefferson

BlueStarLizzard

  • Queen of the Cislords
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,039
  • Oh please, nobody died last time...
Re: Why are there no men in Jane Austin's England?
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2013, 11:22:04 PM »
Actually, first, you are wrong about there being no female heroes in Tolkien's work. In the Lord of the Rings, Eowyn (not an elf) kills the Witch King of Angmar and Galadriel is the most powerful being (minus possibly Tom Bombadil) on the mortal areas of Middle Earth. Going further into Middle Earth, several women (mostly elves, but the Silmarillion is mostly about elves) feature as heroines.

Secondly, I wasn't actually critiquing Austen, I was making as nonsensical a post about Austen's work as the raging feminist at Time did about Tolkien. Men have roles to play in Austen's work, even if they are not the central characters. Replace "men" with "women" the same statement is true with Tolkien.

(I'm not actually arguing with you except for the "no female heroes" part. I just wanted to clarify that I don't actually have  problem with Austen's work. My original post was complete satire.)

And you compleatly missed my point. His female characters are not his primaries.

I'll use Terry Goodkind as my example since I just reread a bunch of the Sword of Truth books.
His primary characters (focal throughout the series) is Richard, Kahlen and Zedd.
Over the course of the series a lot of other characters have large roles or occasionally get central focus, but it always comes back to Richard, Kahlen and Zedd.

Tolkins main players are male. Yes, female characters show up and some play pinical roles in the plot, but they are not the literary "heros" of the books.
"Okay, um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm angry, and I'm armed, so if you two have something that you need to work out --" -Malcolm Reynolds

BlueStarLizzard

  • Queen of the Cislords
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,039
  • Oh please, nobody died last time...
Re: Why are there no men in Jane Austin's England?
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2013, 11:29:48 PM »
BSL,

IICR, Austen was a gentry-class writer, depicting mostly gentry characters. And it seems kind of odd to say that they were about marrying for love, instead of station. She says explicitly that marriages have to take into account factors like the compatibility of the marriage partners, AND practical concerns like money. I guess that could have been scandalous, though. I don't know.



Austen's books don't take themselves nearly seriously enough to be soap opera fodder. More romantic comedy, if we're comparing it to video genres. I haven't read a good deal of Bronte, but I know Wuthering Heights was much more of a soap opera, in terms of being less realistic, and darker in tone.

Like I said, I've never read them.

I was under the impression that she was a proponant of romantic compatibility and marrying someone based on more knowledge  of his character and person then who he was born, looks and how well he behaved in a social setting.

And such would have been fairly revolutionary and shocking at a time when marriages where still more arranged for those being married, then they are today.
"Okay, um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm angry, and I'm armed, so if you two have something that you need to work out --" -Malcolm Reynolds

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: Why are there no men in Jane Austin's England?
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2013, 12:45:33 AM »
Quote
It's not something I think of as offensive. He's a male fantasy writter from another generation. Most male authors do have more major male characters then female, while most female authors have more major female characters, and the primary character is almost always the same sex as the writter.
Which is not nessasarly a bad thing. A lot of times when I read a about a main character written by the oppisite sex, the character falls flat or is a bit odd. I don't think that's sexism, just an example of the difficults in writting fictional characters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y9BukEBI9c
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 34,595
Re: Why are there no men in Jane Austin's England?
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2013, 07:32:16 AM »
The Hero and the Crown is the oldest fantasy boom I can think of with a female lead.  Or at least one of the earliest books I ever read.  Tolkien started his books in the 1930's or. 1940's.  no reason to expect any feminist influence. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,741
Re: Why are there no men in Jane Austin's England?
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2013, 07:43:32 AM »
And before anyone pokes a fun at the b.) reason, I will point out that men seem to enjoy some pretty mindless novels of explosions, gunfighting and grabbing booty, so the sexes are still running even on brain fluff reading material.

Yeah but.....MHI has a strong female lead..... =D

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Why are there no men in Jane Austin's England?
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2013, 09:17:12 AM »
Quote
Tolkin really doesn't have anything in the way of major female characters. He's got a couple female elves that show up and whatnot, but none of his "heros" are female.

It's not something I think of as offensive. He's a male fantasy writter from another generation. Most male authors do have more major male characters then female, while most female authors have more major female characters, and the primary character is almost always the same sex as the writter.
Which is not nessasarly a bad thing. A lot of times when I read a about a main character written by the oppisite sex, the character falls flat or is a bit odd. I don't think that's sexism, just an example of the difficults in writting fictional characters.


Interesting...  I got a finished novel with a female main character and mostly male (by necessity) other characters.  I've not put it out on Kindle yet because it seems to be missing something.  Finally started dusting it off over the holidays, and breaking up some of my long 19th century sentences.

Sometimes I think that I made a mistake trying to write about a female main character, but the whole concept just doesn't work otherwise.  I'm not sure a prince would ever run away from everything to avoid an arranged marraige  =|
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 62,152
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Why are there no men in Jane Austin's England?
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2013, 12:00:03 PM »
Ok. Read the article. I really should go into journalism, if you can get by with that kind of fluff. Just take a standard point of discussion about a well-known book/movie franchise, stir in the typical identity politics talk, done. No originality or research required.
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
--Thomas Jefferson