Author Topic: CCW holder shot in face by pellet gun  (Read 3265 times)

41magsnub

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,579
  • Don't make me assume my ultimate form!
CCW holder shot in face by pellet gun
« on: January 07, 2013, 06:48:05 PM »
An actual hate crime too!

http://gawker.com/5973439/armed-hate-crime-victim-decides-not-to-shoot-attacker

Had it been me, leather most certainly would have been cleared and possibly fired if I thought it was safe to do so.  Even if I didn't fire, I bet the attack would have stopped earlier when pellet gun boy got a look at a real pistol.  I can't fault the guy for his restraint though.

gunsmith

  • I forgot to get vaccinated!
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,187
  • I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Re: CCW holder shot in face by pellet gun
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2013, 06:58:21 PM »
Wow, the guy's got good self control, I probably would be shooting back.
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

T.O.M.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,417
Re: CCW holder shot in face by pellet gun
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2013, 07:46:05 PM »
About 15 years ago, I proved in trial  that a pellet rifle was a deadly weapon, as the pellet velocity was sufficient to cause deep tissue penetration that could cause deadly injuries.   Just saying...
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
"Anybody can give legal advice - but only licensed attorneys can sell it."...vaskidmark

Chuck Dye

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,560
Re: CCW holder shot in face by pellet gun
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2013, 08:00:47 PM »
In my book, great bodily harm, grievous injury, etc., includes being blinded. 

Some of the comments are a bit much, 'though it is nice to see the responses PathrifterBurner received.
Gee, I'd love to see your data!

Lee

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,181
Re: CCW holder shot in face by pellet gun
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2013, 08:01:53 PM »
The perp had a history of 10 arrests, a number of them violent and threatening. So why is he out walking around at all?

gunsmith

  • I forgot to get vaccinated!
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,187
  • I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Re: CCW holder shot in face by pellet gun
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2013, 08:25:54 PM »
The perp had a history of 10 arrests, a number of them violent and threatening. So why is he out walking around at all?

Because we need the prison space for "drug" offenders.
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,923
Re: CCW holder shot in face by pellet gun
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2013, 08:39:05 PM »
He shot 20 times.  I am amazed he didn't shoot.  I would have.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

drewtam

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,985
Re: CCW holder shot in face by pellet gun
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2013, 08:43:43 PM »
My old boss killed a deer with a air gun. Definitely a deadly weapon.
I’m not saying I invented the turtleneck. But I was the first person to realize its potential as a tactical garment. The tactical turtleneck! The… tactleneck!

birdman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,831
Re: CCW holder shot in face by pellet gun
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2013, 09:29:05 PM »
My old boss killed a deer with a air gun. Definitely a deadly weapon.

Did he club the deer with it?  :O

T.O.M.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,417
Re: CCW holder shot in face by pellet gun
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2013, 09:35:34 PM »
There was a trend in mid+Ohio before  the ccw laws for criminals  to use realistic looking pellet and BB guns for criminal purposes to avoid the firearm specifications and mandatory prison time.  Dropped off after the ccw laws passed.  Guess many criminals don't want to get in a one-sided gunfight...
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
"Anybody can give legal advice - but only licensed attorneys can sell it."...vaskidmark

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: CCW holder shot in face by pellet gun
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2013, 09:48:14 PM »
The dirt bags are damned lucky they aren't dead. "Serious bodily harm" meets the criteria for use of deadly force in Oklahoma. A pellet gun can sure as hell cause serious bodily harm. I'm thinking I would likely have returned fire in the same circumstances.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

birdman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,831
Re: CCW holder shot in face by pellet gun
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2013, 09:50:38 PM »
The dirt bags are damned lucky they aren't dead. "Serious bodily harm" meets the criteria for use of deadly force in Oklahoma. A pellet gun can sure as hell cause serious bodily harm. I'm thinking I would likely have returned fire in the same circumstances.

Gun pointed at me, projectile(s) impacting, and I'm not in an airspft arena or paintball field?  Minimal chance of injury to bystanders? I'm opening fire.

drewtam

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,985
Re: CCW holder shot in face by pellet gun
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2013, 09:55:00 PM »
Did he club the deer with it?  :O

I kid you not. The story goes... the deer were "eating my azaleas at night" so he took a pellet gun and shot off hand, without aiming, to frighten the deer away, teach it a lesson, whatever. He finds the deer the next morning; the golden bb shot hit right between the eyes or some such. Deer dropped within yards of where shot rotting at the edge of the yard/treeline
I’m not saying I invented the turtleneck. But I was the first person to realize its potential as a tactical garment. The tactical turtleneck! The… tactleneck!

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,846
Re: CCW holder shot in face by pellet gun
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2013, 09:57:23 PM »
I can't imagine any way or jurisdiction where Mo would have been in trouble for shooting this guy.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Bigjake

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,024
Re: CCW holder shot in face by pellet gun
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2013, 10:17:19 PM »
File the perp in this case under "needed killin'"   

Shame he made it

birdman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,831
Re: CCW holder shot in face by pellet gun
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2013, 10:25:14 PM »
I kid you not. The story goes... the deer were "eating my azaleas at night" so he took a pellet gun and shot off hand, without aiming, to frighten the deer away, teach it a lesson, whatever. He finds the deer the next morning; the golden bb shot hit right between the eyes or some such. Deer dropped within yards of where shot rotting at the edge of the yard/treeline

Probably an eye socket shot to drop it that fast.  On deer, between the eyes is a lot of bone, eye sockets, no so much.

drewtam

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,985
Re: CCW holder shot in face by pellet gun
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2013, 10:28:44 PM »
I suspected the same, but kept my mouth shut about it. After all, not my story to tell.
I’m not saying I invented the turtleneck. But I was the first person to realize its potential as a tactical garment. The tactical turtleneck! The… tactleneck!

zahc

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: CCW holder shot in face by pellet gun
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2013, 10:42:07 PM »
There is always the chance of bystanders, especially in urban areas like Walmart parking lots. If I was under fire and couldn't confirm my target+what's beyond it, I would definitely be hesitant. I know that warning shots are universally contraindicated, but in such a situation (where there is already little to lose) a couple of shots fired in a 'more safe' direction might be enough to slow the attack.
Maybe a rare occurence, but then you only have to get murdered once to ruin your whole day.
--Tallpine

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,404
Re: CCW holder shot in face by pellet gun
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2013, 10:53:30 PM »
... in such a situation (where there is already little to lose) a couple of shots fired in a 'more safe' direction might be enough to slow the attack.

And what might that "more safe" direction be? Down = ricochet. Up? "Whatever goes up must come down."
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

zahc

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: CCW holder shot in face by pellet gun
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2013, 10:56:13 PM »
That's why I said "more safe" rather than "safe".

Bullets show down into concrete/asphalt splatter are less likely to be lethal. Bullets shot up into the air have an extremely small nonzero chance of injuring someone. Bullets fire horizontally in a possibly occupied parking lot may be less safe. You make your choices and take your chances.

Maybe a rare occurence, but then you only have to get murdered once to ruin your whole day.
--Tallpine

gunsmith

  • I forgot to get vaccinated!
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,187
  • I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Re: CCW holder shot in face by pellet gun
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2013, 02:01:58 AM »
Very interesting case for pondering the what ifs

The perp was close enough to hit the guy in the face area, I bet Mr CCW was also close enough to hit center mass.
I'm beginning to think Mr Ccw simply froze and decided to call it prudence.
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

birdman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,831
Re: CCW holder shot in face by pellet gun
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2013, 07:51:08 AM »
There is always the chance of bystanders, especially in urban areas like Walmart parking lots. If I was under fire and couldn't confirm my target+what's beyond it, I would definitely be hesitant. I know that warning shots are universally contraindicated, but in such a situation (where there is already little to lose) a couple of shots fired in a 'more safe' direction might be enough to slow the attack.

The best way to prevent bystander impacts of bullets is to slow the bullet down as much as possible.  When confronted by an armed attacker, by far the MOST safe method to do this is to use the perp's body to do so.  True, most handgun projectiles can penetrate all the way through a person, but they are both heavily expanded and/or fragmented afterwards and traveling much slower.

The lack of safe directions is just one of the reasons warning shots are dumb.  If the weapon is drawn, pointed, and defensive action is still needed (the aggressor didn't stop the aggressive action upon viewing the weapon), AND the requirements of a justified shoot have been met, the loop has been closed, and the safest shot for both the defender and bystanders is a CoM shot(s) on the aggressor.  Remember the rules, do not point a weapon at something you are unwilling to destroy.  If you are not confident that your shot will hit its target, practice more.

While the above has exceptions, the CCW holder's wait and re-assess at the Oregon mall incident as an example, where while the shoot was justified, he had the necessary cover and time (due to the aggressor having a malfunction) to wait, if you are being fired upon directly, the safest shot is at the aggressor.

Further:
1. In this case, it would be highly unlikely the defender would know it was a pellet gun, he felt impacts, and we all know due to adrenaline and actual statements from people who have been shot that impacts don't necessarily feel as bad as they may be.
2. Given #1, the choice is effectively to not shoot (and thus high probability you will be shot) or to shoot (low probability of bystander impact due to penetration and then hit, or low-medium probability of bystander impact due to miss).  

Given that bystander impacts are a multiple probability event (miss or overpenetration AND bullet hitting a bystander), and the various warning shot angles actually can make things worse (into the air is usually lower angle than required...while straight vertical carries little probability of fatal injury, 20-30deg off vertical in the heat of the moment makes things far far worse, and considering we are arguing over this compared to a heat of the moment miss on CoM of target, must be considered.  Also, low angle ground shots, while slowing the bullet, usually result in it fragmenting, increasing the probability of a single impact to a bystander), the shot that has the lowest risk to others is the CoM shot.

Since defense also involves movement so as to also limit the risk to ones self (don't just freeze in place, attempt to find cover and/or spoil attackers shot), moving to create an angle to minimize inadvertent damage is also reasonable.

I hate Monday morning QB'ing DGU's, but in this case, I think its appropriate.  Had the aggressor kept shooting if the weapon was drawn, the best shot is the CoM shot.  So while it worked out here and the perp stopped w/o the weapon drawn, if I was in the position, I would have drawn, and if the attack didn't stop, gone for the CoM shot.

Some other aspects:
1. The girlfriend acted correctly, obtaining cover. (Smart)
2. The article says "a bystander would have been hit if Mohammed had taken the shot" presumes a chain of events (miss or overpenetration) that can't be stated with the certainty used in the article.

Overall, my logic based on training, reading numerous case studies, and thinking about it a lot, is the safest shot when you feel your life is in danger is into the attacker.  In terms of legal results, based on precedent, its easier to have the shoot proved justified (if the requirements have been met, which should be the case if the weapon is even drawn) than to deal with inadvertent impacts on others, and the way to minimize that is not to miss.

Training and practice people, use reactive targets, use multiple targets, practice move and draw, practice rapid target ID.

Take a friend to a range with reactive targets and have them place one of two different color 3x5 cards on a reactive target with you not looking, and before the target turns, have them say the "bad color" (change that up so you don't practice "this color is shoot" by accident) right before the target turns, or use silhouettes of friendly/unfriendly and have them changed without you seeing.

Have an accommodating outdoor range? Practice multiple targets with friendly silhouette targets mixed into the target groups.

Training and practice isn't just accuracy, its shortening your OODA loop.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 08:01:05 AM by birdman »

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,535
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: CCW holder shot in face by pellet gun
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2013, 08:22:04 AM »
The perp was close enough to hit the guy in the face area, I bet Mr CCW was also close enough to hit center mass.
I'm beginning to think Mr Ccw simply froze and decided to call it prudence.


With all due respect to Mr. Mohammed, that would be my guess as well. After all, how did he know it was a pellet gun?
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Ron

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,882
  • Like a tree planted by the rivers of water
    • What I believe ...
Re: CCW holder shot in face by pellet gun
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2013, 09:56:34 AM »
Maybe he didn't feel his life was threatened and isn't in a real hurry to kill anyone, even someone deemed worthy of death by internet gunnies  ;) (not so much here but in the comments).

« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 10:08:34 AM by Ron »
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.