Author Topic: Physicists: Cloverfield, Godzilla, etc.  (Read 2794 times)

AZRedhawk44

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Physicists: Cloverfield, Godzilla, etc.
« on: January 11, 2013, 11:34:44 PM »
Assuming a given movie monster has skin resistance and muscle density twice that of an elephant or crocodile. 

And given a typical movie monster height of 300 feet, its torso is about 30 feet in circumference.  In other words, it's about 15 feet of leathery armored flesh, muscle, fat and bone to get to the heart of the monster.

1 shot from an M1A1 Abrams tank would do the trick, right?

What about a shoulder-mounted Javelin missile?

F-18 with AIM-9 sidewinder?

A-10 with 20mm cannon... how long of a burst?  Will a single 20mm round make it through, and it's a matter of enough holes?

.50BMG rifle with AP rounds.  What depth will it penetrate?

M855 from an M16.  Tungsten core green-tip.  I would expect less than 2 feet penetration.  Yes?



Re-watching Cloverfield right now.  Just watched a massive street-exchange between NYNG with tanks, M2's, M16's, javelins, some sort of missile battery on a HumVee (SAM?  TOW array?) and other toys.  I'm wondering just how strong yet elastic the skin would have to be for that kind of armament to make no damage when it only needs to penetrate about 10-15 feet to reach vitals or completely sever limbs.
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Re: Physicists: Cloverfield, Godzilla, etc.
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2013, 11:52:04 PM »
The closest real world analogues? Dinosaurs. Any of those weapons, one shot would seriously hamburgerize them.

Any mega-monster genera requires lots of suspension of disbelief to keep up the dramatic tension. 
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Re: Physicists: Cloverfield, Godzilla, etc.
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2013, 12:01:47 AM »
The closest real world analogues? Dinosaurs. Any of those weapons, one shot would seriously hamburgerize them.

Any mega-monster genera requires lots of suspension of disbelief to keep up the dramatic tension. 

This.  One of my old unit's Carl Gustav recoilless rifle teams could turn Godzilla into a casualty at 1000m.  One HEAT round not only hamburgerizes great chunks of torso, it cooks it well-done.
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Re: Physicists: Cloverfield, Godzilla, etc.
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2013, 12:03:52 AM »
Having monsters that big possess .... problems.  
Remember the movie "THEM!" with the giant ants?  James Arness fried their sorry butts with flame throwers in the L.A. sewers in that '50s movie.
But ants can't get that big.
Their respiratory systems are primitive and inefficient.  A twelve foot long ant would self-asphyxiate.  It also wouldn't be able to move as its mass would increase at a rate far larger than its strength.

Back in 1968 a new Irwin Allen TV series premiered; "THE LAND OF THE GIANTS.".  Isaac Asimov wrote a rather clever review of it in the TV Guide.  However he pointed out its scientific improbabilities.  The show revolved around a suborbital L.A. to London spaceflight in a ship called the "Spendrift," which went through a wierd Irwin Allen style time warp and landed on an earthlike planet where everything is twelve times bigger.
And the gravity was apparantly earthlike.
Well, that would put a nominally six foot human on this planet at 72 feet high.
But being 12X bigger, in order to find his mass would require the cube of the factor; 12³, or 12 X 12 X 12.
Put your calculators away, the answer is 1,728.  
Now suppose a human being we're talking about would weigh 180 lbs.
Such a human 12X bigger, weighing 1,728 times as much, would weigh 311,040 lbs.
That's 155.52 tons.
BUT consider that his strength would be increased only by the square of the factor, since the cross-section of his muscles is only a two-dimensional factor.  In other words his muscles would exert 144 times the physical power of a normal size human.  But, remember, the mass factor increases not by the square but the cube.  In short, basically, we have a human being that might have some truly impressive proportions but basically have one twelth the physical power required for normal movement.
Oh, and his lungs -- his respiratory surface?  That also increases by the square, so our weak giant becomes asthmatic.... in a fashion, since a surface that is only 144 times bigger must provide oxygen for a mass 1,728 times larger.
Now we know earth in the past has supported some really large impressive critters.  During the Cretaceous a nasty beast called Tyrannosaurus Rex prowled around and, depending on whose theories one believes, scarfed up carrion or brought down other larger critters and ate them.
The largest figure I've ever heard for T-Rex is fifty feet, and other figures make him slightly smaller, and about 8 tons in mass.  
The movie figure of Godzilla, which should really read Gozira, was represented as being many times larger than our real-life T-Rex.  
But here comes that Irwin Allen physics.
It doesn't really work.  There has to be some limiting size because giantism only works up to some limiting point.   I don't know how large Godzilla--er, Gozira was supposed to be, so doing math on it seems pointless.  It wasn't really a Tyrannosaurus Rex anyway, it was a mythical beast never really encountered in real life.
But the physics remain.
Thank you Dr. Asimov.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 05:54:23 PM by TommyGunn »
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Re: Physicists: Cloverfield, Godzilla, etc.
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2013, 01:12:32 AM »
I have nothing to add except that the A-10 Thunderbolt II fields the General Electric GAU 8/A, which is 30mm.  And I have lots of confidence in that weapon system for many unconventional applications.
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Re: Physicists: Cloverfield, Godzilla, etc.
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2013, 01:32:32 AM »
Pulmonary issues aside, you have to pump (magically oxygenated) blood through the body.  Put the heart at maybe 2/3 of the way up the 100' body, so its maybe a BP of 1200/800 to keep Godzira from passing out (80mm corresponds to about a 3' column of water, and I assumed 30' from heart to brain. I also guessed at the human normal of 120/80, and the math turned out simple).

Either he has a turbopump ticker, or the Japanese are going to need one hell of a defibrillator.  Even if his brain is in his tail... that's actually worse.  The pressure required to push blood through that brain would be immense, and a sudden movement to increase it would likely demolish more than a few capillaries and cause an immediate aneurism.  A big one.  Really, that would happen with the brain in the head, just in a much more spectacular fashion in the tail.

I think the real challenge will be assembling enough doctors to keep him alive when he comes out of the sea.

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Re: Physicists: Cloverfield, Godzilla, etc.
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2013, 08:26:15 AM »
1 shot from an M1A1 Abrams tank would do the trick, right?
   Like a hot knife through butter. Depending on the projectile, it might pass clean through with minimal damage to the lizard.

What about a shoulder-mounted Javelin missile?
   Dependes on the warhead, but, yes the lizard would be dead in much the same way ground beef is dead.

F-18 with AIM-9 sidewinder?
   Less likely as it is designed to produce shrapnel to damage aircraft. Might not be enough penetration.

A-10 with 20mm cannon... how long of a burst?  Will a single 20mm round make it through, and it's a matter of enough holes?
   30mm depleted uranium rounds would poke holes in 'Zilla. Great big, smoking holes.

.50BMG rifle with AP rounds.  What depth will it penetrate?
   Good penetration. Might lack in expansion. Should do the trick with good shot placement.

M855 from an M16.  Tungsten core green-tip.  I would expect less than 2 feet penetration.  Yes?
   Won't do much damage. Small entry hole, no exit, minimal fragmentation damage.
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Re: Physicists: Cloverfield, Godzilla, etc.
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2013, 08:32:51 AM »
Considering the main gun on an M1A1 tank is designed to *expletive deleted*ck up other armored vehicles at great distances.....I don't see too many even supernatural beasts having much of a chance against it.
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Re: Physicists: Cloverfield, Godzilla, etc.
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2013, 08:59:48 AM »
Pulmonary issues aside, you have to pump (magically oxygenated) blood through the body.  Put the heart at maybe 2/3 of the way up the 100' body, so its maybe a BP of 1200/800 to keep Godzira from passing out (80mm corresponds to about a 3' column of water, and I assumed 30' from heart to brain. I also guessed at the human normal of 120/80, and the math turned out simple).

Either he has a turbopump ticker, or the Japanese are going to need one hell of a defibrillator.  Even if his brain is in his tail... that's actually worse.  The pressure required to push blood through that brain would be immense, and a sudden movement to increase it would likely demolish more than a few capillaries and cause an immediate aneurism.  A big one.  Really, that would happen with the brain in the head, just in a much more spectacular fashion in the tail.

I think the real challenge will be assembling enough doctors to keep him alive when he comes out of the sea.

Two problems.  Every assumes that skin is skin.  Both critters could have FEET of chitin, laminated biologically with effectively rock.  A meter of soft/hard with pockets and even an Abrams ADFSDS would have problems.

Second, heart rates DECREASE as the animal gets larger, unless you think a giraffe's heart beats as fast as a sparrows...

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Re: Physicists: Cloverfield, Godzilla, etc.
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2013, 09:34:35 AM »
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Re: Physicists: Cloverfield, Godzilla, etc.
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2013, 10:38:53 AM »
Who says mega monsters only have one heart? They could have several circulatory systems, blending valves, pressure regulating valves and booster pumps.

What is the efficiency of our lungs? What if you max out the efficiency at 100% oxygen uptake with each breath? This assumes they need oxygen. What if they used CO2?
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Re: Physicists: Cloverfield, Godzilla, etc.
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2013, 11:03:17 AM »
Skin, scales, or armor....you can't beat kinetic & thermal energy. A MLRS battery should make short work of any Japanese monster....

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Re: Physicists: Cloverfield, Godzilla, etc.
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2013, 11:05:37 AM »
Considering the main gun on an M1A1 tank is designed to *expletive deleted* up other armored vehicles at great distances.....I don't see too many even supernatural beasts having much of a chance against it.

But armored vehicles have certain practical limits on armor thickness.  If we assume 50-100m scale life could exist (square-cube law be damned), then one could assume its hide/scales/skin would be thicker at least in proportion, if not in proportion to the 1.5 power of the scale factor.

Given that 10cm scale animals can have hardened shells 2-5mm thick, (and 100m scale life like a sequoia can have meter thick "dead" shells), a scale factor of 500-1000 means a 100m being could have 1-2m thick hardened exoskeleton, which, if composed of the highest density biological materials (~3g/cc) would have a newton penetration depth vs a 40cm long DU penetetrator of 2-2.5m, which is a reasonable hide/scale/exoskeleton thickness, especially given such a critter would need such a skin to simply provide containment or support of internal pressures.

As for MLRS, the penetration of the little DPICM grenades isn't much, maybe a few 10's of CM.  this would be proportionally comparable to <1mm depth nicks on a human...while there would be a lot, if the critter had in any way a non-vascular and non innervated hide/scales, it wouldn't feel it.

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Re: Re: Physicists: Cloverfield, Godzilla, etc.
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2013, 01:16:39 PM »
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Re: Physicists: Cloverfield, Godzilla, etc.
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2013, 01:55:28 PM »
If the blood/plasma pressure is extraordinarily high, any minor prick shot should quickly reduce the monster's bp to incapacitation - it would gush like a fire hydrant until the hydraulic pressure drops.

But this blood pressure might assume too much about the circulation. What if various parts of the body were on local low pressure circuits. Only a few main arteries are at very high pressure to get back to the lungs...

Another solution is to have local air passage ways for localized "lungs". Therefore, an airsack and heart in each leg, arm, torso, etc. These are fed by a central in and out breathing mouth+blowhole. Therefore, the blood doesn't have to be pumped from a central location all over the body at high pressure. Relatively low pressure air is pump to each local internal air sack.
If the structure is exo-skeleton, that would provide room for internal air passage structures.
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Re: Physicists: Cloverfield, Godzilla, etc.
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2013, 02:22:05 PM »
Having monsters that big possess .... problems.  
Remember the movie "THEM!" with the giant ants?  James Arness fried their sorry butts with flame throwers in the L.A. sewers in that '50s movie.
But ants can't get that big.
Their respiratory systems are primitive and inefficient.  A twelve foot long ant would self-asphyxiate.  It also wouldn't be able to move as its mass would increase at a rate far larger than its strength.

Back in 1968 a new Irwin Allen TV series premiered; "THE LAND OF THE GIANTS.".  Isaac Asimov wrote a rather clever review of it in the TV Guide.  However he pointed out its scientific improbabilities.  The show revolved around a suborbital L.A. to London spaceflight in a ship called the "Spendrift," which went through a wierd Irwin Allen style time warp and landed on an earthlike planet where everything is twelve times bigger.
And the gravity was apparantly earthlike.
Well, that would put a nominally six foot human on this planet at 72 feet high.
But being 12X bigger, in order to find his mass would require the cube of the factor; 12³, or 12 X 12 X 12.
Put your calculators away, the answer is 1,728.  
Now suppose a human being we're talking about would weigh 180 lbs.
Such a human 12X bigger, weighing 1,728 times as much, would weigh 311,040 lbs.
That's 155.52 tons.
BUT consider that his strength would be increased only by the square of the factor, since the cross-section of his muscles is only a two-dimensional factor.  In other words his muscles would exert 144 times the physical power of a normal size human.  But, remember, the mass factor increases not by the sqaure but the cube.  In short, basically, we have a human being that might have some truly impressive proportions but basically have one twelth the physical power required for normal movement.
Oh, and his lungs -- his respiratory surface?  That also increases by the square, so our weak giant becomes asthmatic.... in a fashion, since a surface that is only 144 times bigger must provide oxygen for a mass 1,728 times larger.
Now we know earth in the past has supported some really large impressive critters.  During the Cretaceous a nasty beast called Tyrannosaurus Rex prowled around and, depending on whose theories one believes, scarfed up carrion or brought down other larger critteres and ate them.
The largest figure I've ever heard for T-Rex is fifty feet, and other figures make him slightly smaller, and about 8 tons in mass.  
The movie figure of Godzilla, which should really read Gozira, was represented as being many times larger than our real-life T-Rex.  
But here comes that Irwin Allen physics.
It doesn't really work.  There has to be some limiting size because giantism only works up to some limiting point.   I don't know how large Godzilla--er, Gozira was supposed to be, so doing math on it seems pointless.  It wasn't really a Tyrannosaurus Rex anyway, it was a mythical beast never really encountered in real life.
But the physics remain.
Than you Dr. Asimov.


But don't you think that a creature that size would have a "design" that accounted for it's size and mass? For the same reason that an elephant doesn't have the same internal systems that an ant has?

If I missed the point entirely, forgive me, but my eyes glazed over about halfway through reading that ...  =D
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Re: Physicists: Cloverfield, Godzilla, etc.
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2013, 02:26:26 PM »
.45 ACP is all you'd ever need.
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Re: Physicists: Cloverfield, Godzilla, etc.
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2013, 04:52:20 PM »
. . .  Back in 1968 a new Irwin Allen TV series premiered; "THE LAND OF THE GIANTS.".  Isaac Asimov wrote a rather clever review of it in the TV Guide.  However he pointed out its scientific improbabilities.  The show revolved around a suborbital L.A. to London spaceflight in a ship called the "Spendrift," which went through a wierd Irwin Allen style time warp and landed on an earthlike planet where everything is twelve times bigger. . .
I wasn't even in my teens then, but even so I wondered . . . aside from the square/cube law stuff, if the giants are 12x bigger than we are, wouldn't their vocal cords also be 12x larger? What frequency would they speak at? How fast would they breathe?

And . . . would their cells also be larger, or would there just be more of them? And how would either answer affect things like reflexes?

(I also wonder where the extra mass comes from when monsters - including the Hulk - suddenly grow larger or smaller. Unless you're writing in something really exotic like drawing mass from a pocket universe, at some point things become too implausible to really enjoy.)

And how could Rodan fly at supersonic speed whilst hardly even flapping his wings?

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Re: Physicists: Cloverfield, Godzilla, Land of the Giants and fisiks
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2013, 05:44:21 PM »
But don't you think that a creature that size would have a "design" that accounted for it's size and mass? For the same reason that an elephant doesn't have the same internal systems that an ant has?

If I missed the point entirely, forgive me, but my eyes glazed over about halfway through reading that ...  =D

Ants and elephants have a very different evolutionary pattern.
Ants (and most insects) breath through spiracles on the side of their abdomen.  These are really fancy names for holes.  Air is able to enter and leave fairly freely but aside from the presence of what would be considered rather anemic "blood" thier circulatory system really amounts to little more than fluid moving around due to body movement.
This is a very inefficient respiratory system and does a lot in limiting the size of an insect.  If you ever travel to the equatorial regions where the climate is warmer one thing you may notice is that larger insects are able to live there.  The warmer air means oxygen molecules travel faster and this allows larger growth.  But it doesn't allow for the type of giantism seen in the BIG BUG movies or GODZILLA --er, Gozira movies.
Elephants are of course mammals and have lungs.  Lungs are much more efficient than what ants use.  Gills as in fish and cold blooded marine life are the most efficient of all, but giantism still won't work there because ocean water has very little oxygen in it compared to atmospheric gasses.  The efficiency of gills, which typically are able to remove 80% of the oxygen that pass through them, is a requiremnt to survive in water, while in air the typical mammalian lung removes maybe 20-25% of the oxygen passing through it.
Whether of not a creature the size of Gozira would have systems of a type required for its size is somewhat moot since those creatures exist only in myth or in movies.
At some point the structural strength of bone would be surmounted and a large creature, trying to move, would only succeed in breaking its legs.  That has no evolutionary advantage.  If you want to procreate you sorta hafta wanna get around. 



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Re: Physicists: Cloverfield, Godzilla, etc.
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2013, 06:06:57 PM »
The M1A1 can track and hit a moving helicopter at a kilometer. Putting an APFSDSDU (or is that just a Twilight 2000 round?) into a Gogiran eye socket, which can't be as heavily armored and has a proportionately large hole for the optic nerve regardless, is child's play.  There's nothing of this earth, non-supernatural monster wise, modern man can't kill.
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Re: Physicists: Cloverfield, Godzilla, Land of the Giants and fisiks
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2013, 07:27:50 PM »
Ants and elephants have a very different evolutionary pattern.
Ants (and most insects) breath through spiracles on the side of their abdomen.  These are really fancy names for holes.  Air is able to enter and leave fairly freely but aside from the presence of what would be considered rather anemic "blood" thier circulatory system really amounts to little more than fluid moving around due to body movement.
This is a very inefficient respiratory system and does a lot in limiting the size of an insect.  If you ever travel to the equatorial regions where the climate is warmer one thing you may notice is that larger insects are able to live there.  The warmer air means oxygen molecules travel faster and this allows larger growth.  But it doesn't allow for the type of giantism seen in the BIG BUG movies or GODZILLA --er, Gozira movies.
Elephants are of course mammals and have lungs.  Lungs are much more efficient than what ants use.  Gills as in fish and cold blooded marine life are the most efficient of all, but giantism still won't work there because ocean water has very little oxygen in it compared to atmospheric gasses.  The efficiency of gills, which typically are able to remove 80% of the oxygen that pass through them, is a requiremnt to survive in water, while in air the typical mammalian lung removes maybe 20-25% of the oxygen passing through it.
Whether of not a creature the size of Gozira would have systems of a type required for its size is somewhat moot since those creatures exist only in myth or in movies.
At some point the structural strength of bone would be surmounted and a large creature, trying to move, would only succeed in breaking its legs.  That has no evolutionary advantage.  If you want to procreate you sorta hafta wanna get around. 



I hope your eyes didn't glaze over again. :angel:

Why don't we have a snoring emoticon?

Just kidding!

So what you're saying is that a giant creature would need to have an ultra light but durable skeletal structure so it could support it's own weight (giving it the ability to get around and chase the opposite gender, or be chased, with the intent of procreation) with a respiratory system akin to a plant.

And of course it's fiction. But fiction has to be more believable than the truth.

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Re: Physicists: Cloverfield, Godzilla, etc.
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2013, 08:08:28 PM »
I think at some point it would become so massive that however strong it's skeleton was, the muscles just wouldn't have the strength, and the lungs couldn't support the mass of tissue.
There really doesn't appear to be a niche in evolution for such a creature .... since they don't exist. ;)
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Re: Physicists: Cloverfield, Godzilla, etc.
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2013, 08:19:21 PM »

(I also wonder where the extra mass comes from when monsters - including the Hulk - suddenly grow larger or smaller. Unless you're writing in something really exotic like drawing mass from a pocket universe, at some point things become too implausible to really enjoy.)

I think the official explanation is "other-dimensional source". I'm not overly bothered by that really...


One of the only things I didn't like about Iron Man...I can sorta buy the miniature Arc reactor ("Tony Stark was able to build this in a cave! With a bunch of scraps!"), I can buy the strenght enhancing suit, I can even make up some sort of explanation for why those .50 caliber bullets didn't turn the suit into a strainer when he escaped from the cave. However, how the hell did Stark survive the impact when the first suit crash landed? One would think that it would break just about every bone in his body...

« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 08:29:06 PM by Viking »
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Re: Physicists: Cloverfield, Godzilla, etc.
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2013, 09:36:10 PM »
The M1A1 can track and hit a moving helicopter at a kilometer. Putting an APFSDSDU (or is that just a Twilight 2000 round?) into a Gogiran eye socket, which can't be as heavily armored and has a proportionately large hole for the optic nerve regardless, is child's play.  There's nothing of this earth, non-supernatural monster wise, modern man can't kill.
What about MechaGodzilla!   And don't forget about the giant flying turtle.  I forget that one's name. 

Godzilla absorbed radiation implying a body that is a bit different than most animals. 


I agree that you have to go a bit beyond reality to find creatures Man can't kill or conquer.  I honestly would be more afraid of masses of smaller creatures myself. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

lupinus

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Re: Physicists: Cloverfield, Godzilla, etc.
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2013, 09:56:20 PM »
We are missing another critical question.

What gauge and size shot for Mothra?
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.