Author Topic: Good news. U.S resuming Pu238 production for space missions.  (Read 4817 times)

birdman

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Re: Good news. U.S resuming Pu238 production for space missions.
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2013, 12:08:02 AM »
So here's the big question: Is it possible to build one of these things for less than $10k? (Not counting permits from the EPA and bribes to congresscritters)

Nope.  Not even close.

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Good news. U.S resuming Pu238 production for space missions.
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2013, 02:40:41 AM »
Nope.  Not even close.

That sucks.



So I was just reading through some battleship designs and I came up with a bit of a mental exercise.

The anachronistic scenario: You get chucked back in time to 1930 (presumably with the necessary knowledge for the following), what sort of reactor design, at that time, would be feasible for the South Dakota, Iowa, Enterprise, and Essex class ships? Needs to be something that could be put into production and use no later than 1938, so let us assume means no large stocks of HEU or Pu available for fueling. Needed power output approximately 170MW.

birdman

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Re: Good news. U.S resuming Pu238 production for space missions.
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2013, 07:40:59 AM »
That sucks.



So I was just reading through some battleship designs and I came up with a bit of a mental exercise.

The anachronistic scenario: You get chucked back in time to 1930 (presumably with the necessary knowledge for the following), what sort of reactor design, at that time, would be feasible for the South Dakota, Iowa, Enterprise, and Essex class ships? Needs to be something that could be put into production and use no later than 1938, so let us assume means no large stocks of HEU or Pu available for fueling. Needed power output approximately 170MW.

170MW?  Kinda big for a WWII ship.  Most were about 100khp, or about 75MW, requiring a 200-250MW thermal power reactor.

Given WWII technology, I'd go with a natural uranium, heavy water moderated reactor lie the Canadian CANDU system, as uranium enrichment was difficult, but heavy water separation coud be done in industrial quantities. 

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Good news. U.S resuming Pu238 production for space missions.
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2013, 09:33:04 AM »
170MW?  Kinda big for a WWII ship.  Most were about 100khp, or about 75MW, requiring a 200-250MW thermal power reactor.

Given WWII technology, I'd go with a natural uranium, heavy water moderated reactor lie the Canadian CANDU system, as uranium enrichment was difficult, but heavy water separation coud be done in industrial quantities. 

The Iowa's and Essex class were both propelled by 212,000 shaft horsepower, which is about 158 megawatts.

Tallpine

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Re: Good news. U.S resuming Pu238 production for space missions.
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2013, 09:36:03 AM »
Quote
Well, yes, it's 4-6ft of just about anything.

Styrofoam  ???

 =|
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lupinus

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Re: Re: Re: Good news. U.S resuming Pu238 production for space missions.
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2013, 10:23:57 AM »
Styrofoam  ???

 =|
I'd prefer crushed hippy skills. Birdman would crushed hippy skulls work?

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birdman

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Re: Re: Re: Good news. U.S resuming Pu238 production for space missions.
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2013, 11:14:35 AM »
I'd prefer crushed hippy skills. Birdman would crushed hippy skulls work?

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Actually, if you crushed them to powder...preferably the same power their souls woud be rushed to knowing what you were doing, it would work quite well.

Styrofoam  ???

 =|

If water-logged, yes.

MillCreek

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Re: Good news. U.S resuming Pu238 production for space missions.
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2013, 11:18:14 AM »
I thought that styrofoam was used in nuclear submarines and the ISS as radiation shielding.
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Tallpine

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Re: Good news. U.S resuming Pu238 production for space missions.
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2013, 11:24:32 AM »
I thought that styrofoam was used in nuclear submarines and the ISS as radiation shielding.

Yeah, I was actually thinking of the possibilty of a nuclear powered space ship  ;)
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erictank

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Re: Good news. U.S resuming Pu238 production for space missions.
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2013, 11:56:09 AM »
I thought that styrofoam was used in nuclear submarines and the ISS as radiation shielding.

Styrofoam works fairly well for neutrons, not so much for gammas.

birdman

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Re: Good news. U.S resuming Pu238 production for space missions.
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2013, 01:09:11 PM »
Styrofoam works fairly well for neutrons, not so much for gammas.
Yes, well, and for charged particles, as it avoids bremsstralung X-ray generation.
However, the reason foam is used is to provide other functions as well, as it would work just as well if it were crushed to a solid.

So on the ISS, using foam (especially if its doped with high-Z materials) also provides thermal insulation and micro-meteoroid protection.

On subs, if foam is used, its very dense foam, and it provides secondary benefit of thermal insulation (ie on e primary water loop and around turbo-machinery).

With nuclear, the form of the material matters relatively little--it's effectively purely the mass of stuff per unit area, secondly what stuff, and thirdly, what order the stuff is.

If its fast neutrons, you want as much hydrogen atoms you can put in the way.
For slower neutrons, you want absorbers like cadmium, boron, lithium (the later work best as there is minimal secondary radiation)
For x-rays and gamma rays, you want as many electrons as possible (high atomic number materials) in the way.
Fr charged particles (protons, etc) you just want stuff...but preferably lower Z materials if you want to avoid secondary radiation
That's why most "general" shields are heavy metals (eg lead) to block photons (x and gamma rays), boron loaded plastic (neutrons)

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Good news. U.S resuming Pu238 production for space missions.
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2013, 03:21:13 PM »
I, for one, would like to second the plan of not gamma-irradiating possible unknown lifeforms we are already planning on hitting with a Rod from God.

They will already be angry, and we might not like them when they're gamma-angry.
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Tallpine

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Re: Good news. U.S resuming Pu238 production for space missions.
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2013, 04:08:29 PM »
Yes, well, and for charged particles, as it avoids bremsstralung X-ray generation.
However, the reason foam is used is to provide other functions as well, as it would work just as well if it were crushed to a solid.

So on the ISS, using foam (especially if its doped with high-Z materials) also provides thermal insulation and micro-meteoroid protection.

On subs, if foam is used, its very dense foam, and it provides secondary benefit of thermal insulation (ie on e primary water loop and around turbo-machinery).

With nuclear, the form of the material matters relatively little--it's effectively purely the mass of stuff per unit area, secondly what stuff, and thirdly, what order the stuff is.

If its fast neutrons, you want as much hydrogen atoms you can put in the way.
For slower neutrons, you want absorbers like cadmium, boron, lithium (the later work best as there is minimal secondary radiation)
For x-rays and gamma rays, you want as many electrons as possible (high atomic number materials) in the way.
Fr charged particles (protons, etc) you just want stuff...but preferably lower Z materials if you want to avoid secondary radiation
That's why most "general" shields are heavy metals (eg lead) to block photons (x and gamma rays), boron loaded plastic (neutrons)

As I recall, the problem with nuclear power aircraft was having enough shielding to not kill the crew and not too much to be able to fly  =|
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

birdman

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Re: Good news. U.S resuming Pu238 production for space missions.
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2013, 05:17:44 PM »
As I recall, the problem with nuclear power aircraft was having enough shielding to not kill the crew and not too much to be able to fly  =|

Actually, the shielding for the crew wasn't bad, it was the shielding for everything else.  Of the plane flew over you at say 100ft, at 500mph, you could get a pretty hefty dose.

That and ground crew would be a problem.

AJ Dual

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Re: Good news. U.S resuming Pu238 production for space missions.
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2013, 05:41:26 PM »
Or just say eff-it, and make it EVERYONE'S problem, like with "Project Pluto".   =D
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Tallpine

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Re: Good news. U.S resuming Pu238 production for space missions.
« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2013, 05:42:45 PM »
Breed radiation-resistant humans  =|
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Good news. U.S resuming Pu238 production for space missions.
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2013, 09:03:21 PM »
Breed radiation-resistant humans  =|

I'm sure they're working on it.

T. Gammatolerans laughs at your Gamma LD50. (Estimated lower lethal dose for T.G. is somewhere around 30,000 Grays. Humans: 4 Grays.)

Regolith

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Re: Good news. U.S resuming Pu238 production for space missions.
« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2013, 09:13:44 PM »
Or just say eff-it, and make it EVERYONE'S problem, like with "Project Pluto".   =D

Or the Orion Project.  =D
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just Warren

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Re: Good news. U.S resuming Pu238 production for space missions.
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2013, 09:19:36 PM »
I love the Bloomin' Orion at the OutThere Steakhouse.
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zxcvbob

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Re: Good news. U.S resuming Pu238 production for space missions.
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2013, 10:13:55 PM »
So here's the big question: Is it possible to build one of these things for less than $10k? (Not counting permits from the EPA and bribes to congresscritters)

http://harpers.org/archive/1998/11/the-radioactive-boy-scout/
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