Ping: Pharmacology

[zxcvbob]

Our 10 year old female boxer started having seizures (6 in one day) right before Christmas.  Vet said the most likely cause of seizures in a dog that age is a brain tumor.  No point in MRI'ing or CAT-scanning a boxer that old because they are prone to cancer and only have a 9 or 10 year life expectancy.  She prescribed phenobarbital  as an antiseizure med, 1.5 pills (32.4 mg each) twice a day.  Dog has responded very well; has not had a seizure since we started.  In fact, I quickly reduced the dosage to 2 pills a day just so she wouldn't be so doped-up and it still works.  It's time to get a refill, and I'm going to ask the vet to call in a prescription to Sam's Club where they have 64.8 mg tablets cheaper than I was paying for the 32's.  

Now here's the question:  Should the dog have built up enough tolerance to phenobarb by now to give her one whole (64 mg) pill per day instead of 2 halves 12 hours apart?  I know it's a very slow-acting drug and stays in your system a long time, so it seems like a good idea...  The only downside I can think of is it becomes a lot more important not to miss a dose.

I'm going to ask the vet before I do anything, I just want to make sure it's not totally stupid first.  

[Pharmacology]

Hmmm, I'd love to help out,  but I'm far from being knowledgeable in veterinary medicine.

In general, though, the problem with barbituates is that they can start having toxicities  anywhere from 15 minutes to a few hours after the dose. And you're right,  pheno  is one of the longer acting barbituates.   So,  it could be possible that she'd be fine 30 minutes after getting the dose,  and slowly  start getting worse throughout the day.
Instead of tolerance, I'd be more worried about accumulation of the drug in her system. 

In short,  I wouldn't recommend it. 


Sorry I couldn't be more help

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Dogs are different than 2 legged folk but with humans coming off barbs is tricky. Booze and barbs are the only 2 that i know of where withdrawl can croak you.

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[zxcvbob]

I talked to the head nurse at the animal hospital.  She said 'Tinkerbell's (I didn't name her) dose is low enough it wouldn't hurt to try, but dogs metabolize PB faster than we do, so her blood level might fluctuate enough to have occasional seizures.  Or not.

I may try it if the new 1 grain pills are difficult to cut, but otherwise will keep doing the twice-a-day thing.  It's not that hard to do; she takes pills very easily.  If it was the Labrador, I would definitely try once a day.  (he is amazingly difficult to pill, and it doesn't work to hide it in his food because he finds it)

Thanks.

[Boomhauer]

it doesn't work to hide it in his food because he finds it

I had a dog that we would try to pill by hiding it in her food. She'd eat the food, act normal like she'd never found the pill, then wait until we weren't looking and spit it under the couch.

[Nick1911]

An old veterinarian once told me a trick thats worked out well:  Take three pieces of cheese.  Hide a pill in one of them.  Give the dog a regular piece of cheese first, wait for him to finish.  Then give the piece of cheese with the pill in it, and immediately offer up the third regular piece of cheese.  The dog eats the pill because, hey, there's more food being offered!

[Pharmacology]

I talked to the head nurse at the animal hospital.  She said 'Tinkerbell's (I didn't name her) dose is low enough it wouldn't hurt to try, but dogs metabolize PB faster than we do, so her blood level might fluctuate enough to have occasional seizures.  Or not.

I may try it if the new 1 grain pills are difficult to cut, but otherwise will keep doing the twice-a-day thing.  It's not that hard to do; she takes pills very easily.  If it was the Labrador, I would definitely try once a day.  (he is amazingly difficult to pill, and it doesn't work to hide it in his food because he finds it)Thanks.

Ah, ok.   I know cats have crazy  fast metabolism when it comes to meds, but I wasn't sure about dogs.

I hope they can manage your pup and that she gets better.

[MillCreek]

An old veterinarian once told me a trick thats worked out well:  Take three pieces of cheese.  Hide a pill in one of them.  Give the dog a regular piece of cheese first, wait for him to finish.  Then give the piece of cheese with the pill in it, and immediately offer up the third regular piece of cheese.  The dog eats the pill because, hey, there's more food being offered!

Does this work with wives?

[Rodensouth]

Dogs need twice daily dosing to be effective long term, especially if trying to control seizures likely related to a tumor. That sedation you saw initially is transient and will ease after 2-3 weeks, but since you backed off the dose already I would wait and see what the PB level is when your vet retests in 4 weeks or so. It is also recommended to check a chemistry panel at the same time to make sure liver values aren't too high. PB will almost always cause ALP elevation, but ALT needs to stay less than 3x normal or meds need to be changed.

Don't be afraid to increase the dose if they recommend, they develope a tolerance to the sedation as I stated before, and it can take a pretty big dose to control seizures in some pets.

If the PB dose is topping out and still having seizures, the veterinary neurologist I consult with has me start prednisone to hopefully decrease inflammation associated with tumor. It helps for a few months most of the time. You can ask your vet if they think it is appropriate if you cross that bridge, but there are other underlying conditions that can make corticosteroids contraindicated.

I hope all goes well.

[seeker_two]

An old veterinarian once told me a trick thats worked out well:  Take three pieces of cheese.  Hide a pill in one of them.  Give the dog a regular piece of cheese first, wait for him to finish.  Then give the piece of cheese with the pill in it, and immediately offer up the third regular piece of cheese.  The dog eats the pill because, hey, there's more food being offered!

I do this with my dog's allergy meds, using soft dog treats instead. Works like a charm....