congress backs off the stupid

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/congress/congress-spares-militarys-tuition-assistance-program-from-budget-cuts/2013/03/21/4dfcc004-9239-11e2-9173-7f87cda73b49_story.html


tuition program is back

[TechMan]

I originally read the subject as congress back on the stupid and thought what's new and why is that worthy of a topic. 

[Phantom Warrior]

Like someone pointed out in another forum, civilian employees are looking at a 20% pay cut but Congress is taking action on a secondary option for free college for the military?  TA is the lowest of the low hanging fruit when it comes to military compensation, in my opinion.  Where else should cuts in personnel expenses come from?  Soldiers' pay?  Lower BAH?  Having to pay for healthcare?  Retirement?

This persistent idea that we can fix the budget without anyone having to endure any kind of pain is making it awful hard.

[Fly320s]

I agree. Every program should be part of the mandatory cspending cuts. No sacred cows allowed.

[French G.]

I agree. Every program should be part of the mandatory cspending cuts. No sacred cows allowed.

Then you cut TA reimbursement rates 2.75% or whatever the drastic cut of the day is. Killing the program entirely was just make it hurt BS. Rather than a sacred cow it was a sacrificial lamb.

[Harold Tuttle]

I spoke with a Marine friend this week

In addition to the GA bill there is a tuition assistanace program.

what was proposed to be cut was not the GA bill

this was a stalking horse

[dogmush]

^^^^

This was an added benefit from the days we couldn't get enough people to enlist.  It's a nice incentive, and one that is widely utilized. 

however......

Despite the myths in the civilian world nothing about being in the military promises a free college degree. It's nice while we can afford it, but if you're looking at a 20% cut in equipment maintainance or cutting TA from soldiers in part time school.  Well one actually affects operational readiness.

It's time the public and congress actually remembered what the military exists for.  And that's not as a social experiment or free college for those that couldn't find a scholarship.

[Fitz]

In the Air force, and to a lesser extent, the Army, it's very difficult to get promoted to the higher enlisted ranks without some college. The TA program is even mentioned in Air Force Instructions as something that is more than encouraged , but slightly less than "required." In some MOSs, if you don't max out your civilian education points, you won't be making the cutoff for E-6

It's a defacto career requirement in some MOSs.

The point is, this wasn't just about "taking away free college." It was hampering career development, and also hurting post-service prospects for those Soldiers in MOSs with no direct civilian equivalent. It's tough for a fresh 11b to get a job after getting out. Oddly, employers don't care much about your ability to direct troops under fire.

It wasn't a "choice between 20 percent maintenance cuts and free college," because there's plenty of wasteful programs in the military that could have been cut instead. This was an engineered cut of TA designed to "make it hurt" so that the big wigs at the Department of the Army could keep their pet programs and generate outrage.

I'm glad it's back. I'm still getting out. I don't like that the DoD played political games with the livelihoods of their soldiers. I have national guard soldiers who are working *expletive deleted*it jobs, and using TA to get valuable credentials and training so that they can stop working those *expletive deleted*it jobs.

Then again, people think the military is a free ride, so that probably means little. The military is hardly a free ride for a reservist working at starbucks full time.

[brimic]

I agree. Every program should be part of the mandatory cspending cuts. No sacred cows allowed.

The local talk radio guy pointed out an example of what exactly happens when government has to tighten its belt:

"Imagine a fictional government agency that only has two purposes: One is to create and erect statues of Benedict Arnold the second is to get life saving medicines to impoverished children. Which program are they going to cut first? Of course its going to be the more useful program- the life saving medications to impoverished children but the funding to produce Benedict Arnold statues will not lose a dollar of funding.
The “saving the children” aspect of the agency can be used as propaganda against budget cuts, but if the Benedict Arnold side were defunded or even brought to the public’s eye, people would question why it even exists in the first place.

I guarandamntee you that for every GI that is getting Tuition Assistance, there are 100 producers of “Benedict Arnold” statues in our government.

[dm1333]

Last year, members of the active military took 870,000 courses and earned 50,500 degrees, diplomas and certificates, according to the senators.

I'm a user of TA and have mixed feelings about whether or not it should have been cut and the decision to restore it.  Having said that, 870,000 courses and 50,500 degrees is a lot.  I know a lot of those degrees were associates, but it still makes me think this might actually be a pretty useful program.

[Fly320s]

I guarandamntee you that for every GI that is getting Tuition Assistance, there are 100 producers of “Benedict Arnold” statues in our government.

I agree, but that is problem #2.  Problem #1 is getting the teat out of the people's mouths. 

Everybody gets cut, then we go back in and do meaningful cuts to meaningless programs.  Or, to put it in tactical talk, everybody gets one bullet before anybody gets two.

[Fitz]

I agree, but that is problem #2.  Problem #1 is getting the teat out of the people's mouths. 

Everybody gets cut, then we go back in and do meaningful cuts to meaningless programs.  Or, to put it in tactical talk, everybody gets one bullet before anybody gets two.

That doesn't make much sense to me.

If you have a sick horse, and you have to feed your herd, you don't go give a bullet to all the healthy ones AND sick ones first. You cull the sick first, then see how much that thins out your herd.

[Fly320s]

Our horse is sick; it is over fed. 

[Fitz]

Our horse is sick; it is over fed. 

Yeah, I getcha. I guess my point is, i've seen the positive effect that TA has had. Vet unemployment is a problem, but TA has gone very far to help minimize it. I know many grunts who have gone from unmarketable trigger pullers whose only real job prospects are security/LE/etc, to management degrees, finance/accounting, IT/computer programming, etc. I also routinely see soldiers who DON'T use TA turn around and, after ETS from the Army, are stocking shelves at a wal-mart. Not that it's a bad thing to do, someone's gotta do it, but some of these troops would rather be doing something with some more meaning.

[dogmush]

It wasn't a "choice between 20 percent maintenance cuts and free college," because there's plenty of wasteful programs in the military that could have been cut instead. This was an engineered cut of TA designed to "make it hurt" so that the big wigs at the Department of the Army could keep their pet programs and generate outrage.

You misunderstand.  They (in this case USARC) DID make 20% cuts to their maintenance program.  Done deal. Already implemented. Only thing left to figure out is exactly who will do less when.  No changes in OPTEMPo or mission requirement though.  The choice wasn't which to cut, it was which to restore.  And DOD chose the one that doesn't affect mission readiness.

I like TA, and recommend it to my soldiers, and have used it.  But it is EXTRA.  It doesn't directly contribute to mission accomplishment.

As for carreer advancement almost every job in the country requires some kind of degree to proceed beyond middle management.  Most don't pay for it. Of those that do, it's understood that that's one of the first programs cut when the business starts to go under.

I feel bad that SGT's that I know will have a hard time making SSG.  and I absolutely agree that there's more waste to be cut from the DOD, and when we're done doing that we probably CAN afford TA.

But it was stupid and political of the DOD to reinstate TA when we have cut funding to programs that actually affect our mission.  and since we're the military, it'll probably kill people.

[Fitz]

You misunderstand.  They (in this case USARC) DID make 20% cuts to their maintenance program.  Done deal. Already implemented. Only thing left to figure out is exactly who will do less when.  No changes in OPTEMPo or mission requirement though.  The choice wasn't which to cut, it was which to restore.  And DOD chose the one that doesn't affect mission readiness.

I like TA, and recommend it to my soldiers, and have used it.  But it is EXTRA.  It doesn't directly contribute to mission accomplishment.

As for carreer advancement almost every job in the country requires some kind of degree to proceed beyond middle management.  Most don't pay for it. Of those that do, it's understood that that's one of the first programs cut when the business starts to go under.

I feel bad that SGT's that I know will have a hard time making SSG.  and I absolutely agree that there's more waste to be cut from the DOD, and when we're done doing that we probably CAN afford TA.

But it was stupid and political of the DOD to reinstate TA when we have cut funding to programs that actually affect our mission.  and since we're the military, it'll probably kill people.

If the folks at DoD had any smarts, they would have, instead of cutting that maintenance, cut dumb *expletive deleted*it. There are, currently, many programs that are dumb as hell, that are not seeing big cuts. Could have saved TA and avoided cutting maintenance if we got rid of those.

And it's not DOD reinstating TA. It's congress forcing them to find the money elsewhere.

[dogmush]

True.

But I'm not holding my breath on the smarts suddenly being found.

I didn't realize it was congress. That makes me feel better actually. I'm used to their idiocy.

[Balog]

Purchase one less unit of [bloated weapons system] and hey look we have all the money we need! Not that hard. If you're counseling a family trying to get out of debt and they decide to stop paying rent or taking their kids to the doctor but not get rid of their cable and smart phone plans would you applaud them for "doing something"? Would you say "hey that's a great start and we'll go back later and cut the stuff we should have in the first place."

[Fitz]

Purchase one less unit of [bloated weapons system] and hey look we have all the money we need! Not that hard. If you're counseling a family trying to get out of debt and they decide to stop paying rent or taking their kids to the doctor but not get rid of their cable and smart phone plans would you applaud them for "doing something"? Would you say "hey that's a great start and we'll go back later and cut the stuff we should have in the first place."

Yep... PEO Soldier is FULL of dumb *expletive deleted*it they're throwing money at. Seems to me, scrap one "NEXT GEN!!!eleventy" project at PEO soldier and you've saved the maintenence. Scrap another and you've saved TA.

[Fitz]

Just read in the Army Times that congress' bill also gives them more latitude in where the cuts happen, and restores a large chunk of the maintenance cuts.


So, the way I read this, it looks as though TA is being restored, maintenence is being funded, and the DoD is directed to "find" the specified cut amount in places other than those.

Qhote from army times:

It includes 173.5 billion for maintenence, a 10.4 billion increase that, even after the 7.8 percent sequestration reduction, would avoid drastic cuts in training, operations and maintenance.

The bill also reduces the overall defense budget from 633 billion to 605 billion in 2013.


Additionally, guard/reserve operations are being cut back to the bare minimum 39 days per year... the oft quoted "one weekend a month, two weeks a year."

[brimic]

I did not realize that TA was under the DOD budget.
OTOH, it seems that the left hand is not allowed to show what its doing to the right hand.

There are no end to the numbers of kids who are getting education assistance from .gov who A): don't even have the aptitude let alone motivation to ever graduate from a center of higher learning or B): If they do graduate, have no means of paying back loans or contributing to society in the form of tax revenues to pay for their higher education.
This is one of the sacred cows of the left that isn't going to get gored, the same people would be overjoyed with giddiness if the DOD budget were cut- along with GI TA.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

I did not realize that TA was under the DOD budget.
OTOH, it seems that the left hand is not allowed to show what its doing to the right hand.

There are no end to the numbers of kids who are getting education assistance from .gov who A): don't even have the aptitude let alone motivation to ever graduate from a center of higher learning or B): If they do graduate, have no means of paying back loans or contributing to society in the form of tax revenues to pay for their higher education.
This is one of the sacred cows of the left that isn't going to get gored, the same people would be overjoyed with giddiness if the DOD budget were cut- along with GI TA.

You forgot c
Have no intention of ever attempting to pay back

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2

[dogmush]

Additionally, guard/reserve operations are being cut back to the bare minimum 39 days per year... the oft quoted "one weekend a month, two weeks a year."

Bull Scat.

We're just coding the days of AD differently. 

[Fitz]

Bull Scat.

We're just coding the days of AD differently.

How? They've already published a new idt schedule for us without all the MUTA 6 drill periods.

[dogmush]

ADT and ADST orders mostly.  Then RMA's and ADO's. The RMA's at the unit level are hard to get because they are being used at BN and above.



One weekend a month/2 weeks a year only counts for units that don't have an OEF role.