Can't figure out this home wiring setup--help?

[Monkeyleg]

When we moved into this house, there were already two recessed spotlights in the ceiling above the fireplace to shine on a painting. There was also a ceiling fan with lights. The recessed spotlights only had one switch on one wall. The ceiling fan had three switches (3-way) on three different walls.

I want to add more recessed spotlights to two other walls for two more framed pieces of art. I already added one spotlight to the existing wiring, running off the same single switch. I'd like to have a dimmer switch for the next two spotlights, and have the dimmer switch on the wall opposite the existing recessed spot switch.

In the receptacle in which I want to install the dimmer are two switches. One is a three-way for the ceiling fan, and the other doesn't seem to control anything. There are two leads on the bottom of the non-functioning switch:  one black lead coming from the live feed, and one white one going to the ceiling fan. The top (switched) lead goes back to the three-way switch on the opposite wall.

That top (switched) lead has no effect on the ceiling fan. I don't understand why it's there at all. And if there's supposed to be current going through the white wire to the ceiling fan, why not just join the black and white leads that are at the bottom of the right switch together with a wire nut? Why use a switch to join them?

There isn't an inlet in the box for a fourth cable to come in, but I could make one, or put the fourth cable together with another one through the same hole. But first I'd like to figure out what's going on.

Here's a diagram of the wiring. Any ideas what's going on?

[Hawkmoon]

VERY funky. A switch should never have a white wire attached. Black is hot -- white is neutral. Switches go in the hot lead, upstream of the "appliance" (we'll include both lights and fans in "appliance"). Always.

In a 2-way switch setup, there's a black wire to the first switch. Then the two switched legs running to the second switch SHOULD BE black and red. (If white is used because that's what they have on the job, the ends of the white are supposed to be wrapped in red tape.) Then from the second switch, a single black runs to the switched appliance.

I can't understand your diagram. You talk about a box with two switches, but you're showing a diagram with three switches -- two 2-ways and a one-way -- and then two more switches.

My brother moved into a new (to him) house a number of years ago. They found a switch that didn't seem to control anything. When he added onto the garage and we set out to wire the addition, we found that the mystery switch controlled an outdoor floodlight that had no bulb in it.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

see switches with white and black a lot if the fixture is hot and they just use the switch to break one leg.  see lots of "funny" wiring. tomorrow will be one of those days. swapping out a federal pacific box in a house with a lot of jackleg remodeling in it.  once saw a house where the right side of panel box was black hot white neutral  the other side the reverse

[zxcvbob]

I don't understand the diagram either.

A black wire and a white wire going to a switch is kinda normal if they are using Romex cable (etc) instead of individual wires in a conduit.  The white wire *should* have some black tape or permanent marker (or red or blue or...) at both ends to signify that it's hot, but usually doesn't.

[Monkeyleg]

Hawkmoon, the ceiling fan circuit has three switches. I'm not showing the switch across the room or the one by the patio door. There's three switches for the ceiling fan, one of which is in this particular box, and then the single switch that goes nowhere  also in this box.

I suspect what you guys are saying is correct about them using the white wire for a hot wire in the circuit, and them not painting it black or red. What I can't figure out is why they have a switch there. The black wire just runs back to the box across the room and connects to another three way switch, adding a redundant hot connection (when the single switch is on). It does nothing.

I may just take the hot black and hot white wires and add them to the hot lead on a dimmer switch, and attach to that another length of romex for the additional spot lights. First I'll just connect the new spot lights to the existing spots to see if the new ones need dimming at all.

[Hawkmoon]

Here's a link that explains how three switches for a single appliance should be wired. For starters, I'd suggest you look at each of your three fan switches and see if they are the correct type of switches. Also, with the fan off, probe to see which black wire is hot. It will help you to know which of the three switches is the first in line (the one most "upstream," electrically).

http://www.ask-the-electrician.com/4wayswitchdiagram.html

[Monkeyleg]

Hawkmoon, I've wired multiple-switch circuits before, although I always have to check the diagrams. I never came up with an extra switch and ran it back to another switch, though.

I've had older houses until this one, and I'm used to bx, conduit, and galvanized junction boxes being run neatly, and nailed to studs and joists. When I went up in the attic the first time, I was shocked to see romex just hanging from the rafters and laying around the attic floor. I didn't think work that sloppy could pass an inspection. I guess that's how it's done today.

[Hawkmoon]

I think you need to diagram your wiring like the two diagrams I posted. The picture you posted looks to me like either five switches, or two switches and three devices. But what you apparently have is one device (the fan) and four switches.

You may have wired some multiple switch circuits in the past -- so have I -- but have you ever wired one with three or more switches? I'm only 69 years old, and I've never done more than two switches for a single circuit. I had to look up how to do one with three or more switches.

[Hawkmoon]

I've had older houses until this one, and I'm used to bx, conduit, and galvanized junction boxes being run neatly, and nailed to studs and joists. When I went up in the attic the first time, I was shocked to see romex just hanging from the rafters and laying around the attic floor. I didn't think work that sloppy could pass an inspection. I guess that's how it's done today.

It wouldn't. Romex has to be stapled within a few inches of the box, and every two or three feet from there on. The code doesn't require that all the wires be neatly arranged, but it would be difficult to satisfy the support requirements without making a fairly neat installation.

[Monkeyleg]

I've put in lighting with three switches before. I had to look at the directions, but it worked.

Again, the switch on the right is not a two-way or three-way. It's a single switch, and has nothing to do with the operation of the ceiling fan or any other device. The bottom screw on the switch is being used as a junction for the hot black lead coming from the breaker box, and the white lead that's joined with that black lead goes to the ceiling fan. The black (switched) wire doesn't do anything. I've tried every ceiling fan switch and every light and receptacle in the house.

As for the sloppy romex not being code, I asked my former BIL about that. He runs a plumbing/HVAC business, but knows electrical, too. He said that he sees a lot of new construction with the romex just lying sloppily in the attic, not even stapled down.

[Boomhauer]

He said that he sees a lot of new construction with the romex just lying sloppily in the attic, not even stapled down.

Nobody cares about their worksmanship anymore. It's endemic in the trades world.

[Brad Johnson]

It looks like someone fubar'd a setup where there was supposed to be a multi-switch circuit for the lights and a single switch for the ceiling fan. Exactly backwards from what you have. 

It's also quite possible some well-meaning do-it-yourselfer go the wrong switches as part of a pseudo update.

Brad

[Monkeyleg]

It's also quite possible some well-meaning do-it-yourselfer go the wrong switches as part of a pseudo update.

Very possible. When I put a new light fixture above the counter in the bathroom, I was surprised to find the romex just running to the fixture. No box at all. Just wire nuts exposed behind the wall.

[Matthew Carberry]

If the single switch isn't doing anything, pull it out to clarify the diagram for yourself.  Then add the other switch and its connections in. Based on what you show either there's no neutral back to the box, which can't be or it wouldn't work, or one of the blacks is acting as one.

I second drawing the entire thing, the missing box and switch also have something funky going on.

[Monkeyleg]

I just put in the other two spotlights, adding them to the existing spotlight circuit, which is not shown on the diagram.

Since everything works, I don't want to mess with it. If I find that I need the last two spots to be dimmed more or less than the other two, I'll revisit this issue.

Damn, it was over 100 in the attic today. There's only about 4 feet max height, so I spent all day crawling on my hands and knees. I'm too old for this.

[Matthew Carberry]

Very possible. When I put a new light fixture above the counter in the bathroom, I was surprised to find the romex just running to the fixture. No box at all. Just wire nuts exposed behind the wall.

Its not unusual to just leave a coil of romex in the wall until the vanity goes in so you can put the box exactly where it needs to be. If the connection is done inside the fixture that can be safe without a box. I prefer to cut in a remodel box once I know where it needs to be so any light can be used in the future.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

trade ya


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