Author Topic: Help ID some rusty rifles. Picture intense!  (Read 4285 times)

freakazoid

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Help ID some rusty rifles. Picture intense!
« on: May 26, 2013, 06:07:05 AM »
So recently my step-dad gave me 4 rusty rifles, 2 have some or most of the wood on it still. He is one of those people that knows everybody, and he works in heating and air-conditioning and will sometimes work for trade. I guess one guy found these under his house and gave it to him. I am wondering what they are, and if these are even able to be fixed up or if they are to far gone. Haven't cleaned them up or checked the bore so I don't know how well they are inside.

Rifle one;




Rifle 2;



Rifle 3; This one has weird marks on it, like little diamond shaped punches.



Rifle 4; This one was, where it wasn't rusted up, was real shiny like it was chromed.


So what say you collective mind of APS?
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

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vaskidmark

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Re: Help ID some rusty rifles. Picture intense!
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2013, 07:24:35 AM »
#1 looks like a Moisin-Negant without the bolt.

#2 looks like what the stamp marking say - a K-98 made in China.

#3 looks like the barrel is split, and those diamond marks may be either rejection marks or some QC guy with OCD.  I have no idea why it has a pintle mount on the underneath.  I'm thinking the two holes bored in the receiver are not for attaching a scope or other device, but to render the part useless.
 

#4 is a good example of why you need to oil your firearm even if it is chrome-plated.  It was made by V Chr. Shilling.  see http://www.gunvaluesboard.com/asking-for-information-/-value-of-9-x-57-rifle-made-by-v-chr-schilling-based-on-a-1888-mauser-action-25996616.html  for history of the company and a picture of one of their rifles that is not rusted. 

"CAI ST A VT" is possibly an alternate importer mark for "CAI St A VT" which was an importer named Century Arms International in St. Albans, Vermont.  See http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=90323 for some discussion of them.  They moved from St. Albants, Vt to Goergia, Vt (ys, it is confusing) per this http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?285522-When-did-CAI-change-from-St-Albans-VT-to-Georgia-VT.  Googling "CAI" or "Century Arms International" will get you more info than you need to know.

Your four examples, if strung together with stout cord, would possibly make an anchor for a very small rowboat/canoe.  Otherwise they are good for explaining why any firearm you plan to bury  for future use needs to be packed in cosmoline.

stay safe.
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Scout26

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Re: Help ID some rusty rifles. Picture intense!
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2013, 09:17:33 AM »
VA beat me to it. 

The only thing they might be good for is turning them in at a "gun buyback" to get the $100 gift cards.
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lupinus

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Re: Help ID some rusty rifles. Picture intense!
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2013, 09:32:52 AM »
VA beat me to it. 

The only thing they might be good for is turning them in at a "gun buyback" to get the $100 gift cards.
Spot of oil and a little elbow grease will make um good as new!
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K Frame

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Re: Help ID some rusty rifles. Picture intense!
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2013, 10:44:03 AM »
The one with the two holes in the top of the receiver appears to be an Arisaka of some flavor. I'm seeing the interlocking four circles of Kokura Arsenal.

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K Frame

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Re: Help ID some rusty rifles. Picture intense!
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2013, 10:44:52 AM »
It would be a bit easier to really figure out what is what if you had posted pix of each rifle in its own separate message in this thread.
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Doggy Daddy

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Re: Help ID some rusty rifles. Picture intense!
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2013, 12:02:04 PM »
The only thing they might be good for is turning them in at a "gun buyback" to get the $100 gift cards.

Oh yes, please!  Can I watch???  When you do it, act all proud and warn the cops that if they keep them for their own collections, you'll have their jobs over it.   :lol:
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Re: Help ID some rusty rifles. Picture intense!
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2013, 12:18:49 PM »
That would be so perfect.  There are two dozen different milsurps at my LGS right now in the $400 range; Enfields, Mausers of all types (including an increasingly rare FR-8 that I so want but can't afford right now), Mosins, Arisakas, you name it.

It appears during the recent insanity that lots of people were dumping their bolt actions to raise money for semi-autos.
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Fly320s

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Re: Help ID some rusty rifles. Picture intense!
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2013, 12:29:06 PM »
How about a photo showing the whole rifle at once?
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White Horseradish

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Re: Help ID some rusty rifles. Picture intense!
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2013, 01:44:08 PM »
#1 looks like a Moisin-Negant without the bolt.

Nope. Not at all. The magazine, the trigger and the sight are not even close. I think that's some sort of a Mannlicher.
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Re: Help ID some rusty rifles. Picture intense!
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2013, 01:52:43 PM »
I can't help with the ID much more, but I can spot a moron from a ways off. The weird diamond shape punch marks are where said moron clamped it into a vise to hack the rear sight assembly off.
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freakazoid

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Re: Help ID some rusty rifles. Picture intense!
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2013, 02:08:32 PM »
How about a photo showing the whole rifle at once?

These are not in original rifle order. Rifle 1 and 2 are switched.
Looks like someone has a hole in his sock. :laugh:


« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 10:43:16 PM by freakazoid »
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

freakazoid

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Re: Help ID some rusty rifles. Picture intense!
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2013, 02:45:40 PM »
#1 looks like a Moisin-Negant without the bolt.

#2 looks like what the stamp marking say - a K-98 made in China.

#3 looks like the barrel is split, and those diamond marks may be either rejection marks or some QC guy with OCD.  I have no idea why it has a pintle mount on the underneath.  I'm thinking the two holes bored in the receiver are not for attaching a scope or other device, but to render the part useless.
 

#4 is a good example of why you need to oil your firearm even if it is chrome-plated.  It was made by V Chr. Shilling.  see http://www.gunvaluesboard.com/asking-for-information-/-value-of-9-x-57-rifle-made-by-v-chr-schilling-based-on-a-1888-mauser-action-25996616.html  for history of the company and a picture of one of their rifles that is not rusted.  

"CAI ST A VT" is possibly an alternate importer mark for "CAI St A VT" which was an importer named Century Arms International in St. Albans, Vermont.  See http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=90323 for some discussion of them.  They moved from St. Albants, Vt to Goergia, Vt (ys, it is confusing) per this http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?285522-When-did-CAI-change-from-St-Albans-VT-to-Georgia-VT.  Googling "CAI" or "Century Arms International" will get you more info than you need to know.

Your four examples, if strung together with stout cord, would possibly make an anchor for a very small rowboat/canoe.  Otherwise they are good for explaining why any firearm you plan to bury  for future use needs to be packed in cosmoline.

stay safe.

Man that example in #4 sure is purty.
On #3, That is actually where the sight leaf would be, it looks like it was badly hacked off. Those two holes are bored in at an angle towards each other. They bore into the groove where the bolt locks in.
Did China make K98s?

#1 and 4 both say MOD 98, and then some 3 letter word. The first letter looks like it is a 6 or a G. The 2nd letter looks like maybe a 2. The last letter is an R.
They are also clearly 2 different rifles
#2 says K98 China 8mm
#4 doesn't appear to be marked on the end of the barrel.

It would be a bit easier to really figure out what is what if you had posted pix of each rifle in its own separate message in this thread.

I thought about it. But I didn't really want to hog up four thread spaces with what is basically the same question.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 03:04:02 PM by freakazoid »
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

White Horseradish

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Re: Help ID some rusty rifles. Picture intense!
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2013, 02:52:09 PM »
Ok, scratch that Mannlicher remark.


#1 is a Gewehr 98 Mauser. The sight is a 1905  model for the spitzer bullet cartridge. The magazine cutoff makes me think it's a Turkish variant.
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

Robert A Heinlein

freakazoid

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Re: Help ID some rusty rifles. Picture intense!
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2013, 03:11:22 PM »
Ok, scratch that Mannlicher remark.


#1 is a Gewehr 98 Mauser. The sight is a 1905  model for the spitzer bullet cartridge. The magazine cutoff makes me think it's a Turkish variant.

It is a really cool sight. Is the magazine cutoff that knob thing that sticks out the side on the right? When I push it forward it seems to cause the follower to drop a little. I originally figured it must of been a safety.
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

White Horseradish

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Re: Help ID some rusty rifles. Picture intense!
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2013, 03:33:47 PM »
Is the magazine cutoff that knob thing that sticks out the side on the right? When I push it forward it seems to cause the follower to drop a little. I originally figured it must of been a safety.
Yep, that's the cutoff. When engaged it turns it into a single-shot, "to conserve ammo". The safety is on the bolt.

There were some surplus WWI Gew98 rifles that were supplied to Turkey. I didn't know they had cutoffs, I thought that was strictly on the ones built for Turks specifically.
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

Robert A Heinlein

geronimotwo

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Re: Help ID some rusty rifles. Picture intense!
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2013, 03:59:55 PM »
Spot of oil and a little elbow grease will make um good as new!

failing that, you could weld 3 of 'em together and create a stool base for the reloading room.  or an interesting base for your reloading press?
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freakazoid

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Re: Help ID some rusty rifles. Picture intense!
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2013, 04:05:58 PM »
failing that, you could weld 3 of 'em together and create a stool base for the reloading room.  or an interesting base for your reloading press?

That sounds like a really awesome idea. :rofl:
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

Gewehr98

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Re: Help ID some rusty rifles. Picture intense!
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2013, 04:27:38 PM »
Three are Gewehr98s, and variations thereof.   =D

The #2 rifle really catches my eye. The rollercoaster rear sight (Lange Vizier) is both an identification tipoff and somewhat rare, albeit at this stage of decomposition not particularly valuable.

The lack of a thumb relief cut in the left receiver wall narrows things down even further.  What's on the right side of the receiver wall nails it, though.

I'd wager it's a Turkish Model 1895, with the signature original magazine cutoff left intact.  These were often removed when the guns went through arsenal refurb to 8mm Mauser circa 1935.

The rollercoaster sights usually didn't survive this rebuild, either.

The import marks on the barrels lets you know they came in as surplus through Century Arms International (St. Albans, Vermont).  That means they came across the pond fairly recently.

That V. CHR. SCHILLING 1934 K98 was one of the rarest contract 98 Mauser manufacturers prior to WWII.  

It hurts my collector's heart to see these in such poor condition, especially since they were imported in considerably better shape, and not too long ago.

On the flip side, storing guns under a house, or on a basement floor prone to flooding, does nothing but help the prices of other surviving specimens appreciate, I guess...  

  

  



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freakazoid

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Re: Help ID some rusty rifles. Picture intense!
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2013, 05:13:15 PM »
Three are Gewehr98s, and variations thereof.   =D

The #2 rifle really catches my eye. The rollercoaster rear sight (Lange Vizier) is both an identification tipoff and somewhat rare, albeit at this stage of decomposition not particularly valuable.

The lack of a thumb relief cut in the left receiver wall narrows things down even further.  What's on the right side of the receiver wall nails it, though.

I'd wager it's a Turkish Model 1895, with the signature original magazine cutoff left intact.  These were often removed when the guns went through arsenal refurb to 8mm Mauser circa 1935.

The rollercoaster sights usually didn't survive this rebuild, either.

The import marks on the barrels lets you know they came in as surplus through Century Arms International (St. Albans, Vermont).  That means they came across the pond fairly recently.

That V. CHR. SCHILLING 1934 K98 was one of the rarest contract 98 Mauser manufacturers prior to WWII.  

It hurts my collector's heart to see these in such poor condition, especially since they were imported in considerably better shape, and not too long ago.

On the flip side, storing guns under a house, or on a basement floor prone to flooding, does nothing but help the prices of other surviving specimens appreciate, I guess...  

 :'( Man that really sucks.

So what's up with the Japanese/Chinese writing on rifle 2 and 3? 1 and 3 from the group photo.
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

K Frame

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Re: Help ID some rusty rifles. Picture intense!
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2013, 07:59:56 PM »
As I said, one of the rifles appears to be a Japanese Arisaka. Possibly a Type 38. It has the mark for the Kokura Arsenal on it. It also has the double gas relief holes that are typical to an Arisaka, and it has the slots in the receiver for the sliding dust cover.

So that would be what's up with the Japanese writing on that particular rifle.


The one with the Chinese script on it is probably one of the many thousands of rifles that was supplied to the Nationalist Chinese forces by Germany in the 1920s and 1930s while they were trying to put down the Communist insurrection led by Mao.

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freakazoid

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Re: Help ID some rusty rifles. Picture intense!
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2013, 10:54:44 PM »
Interesting.

Do you guys think these are rebuildable? Rifle 1 from the group photo has that badly corroded piece in the back, which looks like it can be replaced, and rifle 4 has that heavy corrosion spot on the barrel. Do you think these are bad enough that they can't be repaired? Most seems to be light surface corrosion.
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

Pharmacology

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Re: Help ID some rusty rifles. Picture intense!
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2013, 12:30:04 AM »
I wonder if you could do some electrolysis and sell some of the parts?

There's gotta be somebody looking for a sight assembly, or something.

geronimotwo

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Re: Help ID some rusty rifles. Picture intense!
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2013, 08:42:09 AM »
rebuildable?  just looking at the amount of rust, and assuming the bores are similar, i'm going to say it's not economically feasible.   i'm also guessing that there was a reason for the bolts to have been removed before you acquired them.  unless you have some emotional attachment?
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mtnbkr

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Re: Help ID some rusty rifles. Picture intense!
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2013, 08:30:06 PM »
Looks like someone has a hole in his sock. :laugh:

Does everything you touch turn to *expletive deleted*it? ;)

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