Changes in immigration policy to favor the educated

[MillCreek]

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2021104424_meritimmigrationxml.html

I have always thought that we should emphasize educated people or people willing to invest in the US in our immigration policy.  Here in the Seattle area, there are a number of building projects and the like being built by people from Asia to qualify for immigration.  The part about promoting immigration by educated people is being pushed by Microsoft and some other dot com companies in this area, who claim they cannot find enough educated Americans to fill their job slots.  The educated Americans who have been laid off or cannot find jobs in high tech disagree, stating that this change in immigration policy is being done primarily to depress wages.

[Marnoot]

I think it varies a lot by area. Here in the Salt Lake valley we're having a horrible time finding qualified/competent software developers to fill our open requisitions.

We're specifically trying to increase our numbers in our office here to compensate for low development velocity by our offshore team, but aren't having much luck doing it. We get few applicants, and even fewer ones worth considering.

[Tallpine]

I think it varies a lot by area. Here in the Salt Lake valley we're having a horrible time finding qualified/competent software developers to fill our open requisitions.

We're specifically trying to increase our numbers in our office here to compensate for low development velocity by our offshore team, but aren't having much luck doing it. We get few applicants, and even fewer ones worth considering.

I work off-site from home only, if you're interested 


low development velocity - isn't that a nice way of putting it? 

What about sub-optimum quality

[Marnoot]

What about sub-optimum quality

No shortage of that. I consistently run across quality, logical code like this one I saw on Friday:

Code: [Select]

// Absolute the number
int num = Math.Abs(Math.Abs(temp) - 0));


I work off-site from home only, if you're interested 

We're a .NET/C# shop, working with WPF, WCF, etc., where I seem to recall you're more of a C++ guru. We have had the occasional remote domestic contractor before (with varying degrees of success), but currently management wants our open reqs in-office.

[Fitz]

One of our developers put a function in our code called transformThatMothaTrucka()


You all recall where I work

Yeah ... It almost went into production like that

[Tallpine]

No shortage of that. I consistently run across quality, logical code like this one I saw on Friday:

Code: [Select]

// Absolute the number
int num = Math.Abs(Math.Abs(temp) - 0));

We're a .NET/C# shop, working with WPF, WCF, etc., where I seem to recall you're more of a C++ guru. We have had the occasional remote domestic contractor before (with varying degrees of success), but currently management wants our open reqs in-office.

I keep running into stuff like converting an ordinal value into a binary string, and then stepping through each character to test if it is a '0' or a '1' instead of just doing bit logic like nValue = (nWord >> nBit ) & 0x01 

And then after several hundred needless lines of code the result is usually wrong. 

I could probably catch up to the dot net stuff, but then I got off into embedded ANSI C for a while.  Supposedly I have another project spooling up as the current one is winding down (going into formal qualification testing).

[roo_ster]

I think it varies a lot by area. Here in the Salt Lake valley we're having a horrible time finding qualified/competent software developers to fill our open requisitions.

We're specifically trying to increase our numbers in our office here to compensate for low development velocity by our offshore team, but aren't having much luck doing it. We get few applicants, and even fewer ones worth considering.

Offer more $$$.  If there is enough carrot, you'll find donkeys enough to do the work.

[birdman]

One of our developers put a function in our code called transformThatMothaTrucka()

What did it do?

[Fitz]

It transformed a mothatrucka

[Marnoot]

Offer more $$$.  If there is enough carrot, you'll find donkeys enough to do the work.

If I held the purse strings, things would be much different. Unfortunately the bean counters and upper management just see the salary difference, not the quality difference.

"Why would we hire one developer in the U.S. for $75K when we can hire three for that in Bangalore?"

Nevermind that your "high-paid" developers in the U.S. end up spending more time and money fixing what the Bangalore team did than you ever saved . . .

[ArfinGreebly]

I think it varies a lot by area. Here in the Salt Lake valley we're having a horrible time finding qualified/competent software developers to fill our open requisitions.

We're specifically trying to increase our numbers in our office here to compensate for low development velocity by our offshore team, but aren't having much luck doing it. We get few applicants, and even fewer ones worth considering.

I have applied for several jobs in Utah, covering a pretty wide range of competencies (my resume suffers from "serial generalist" disorder, to wit:  Database.  Embedded.  Windows.  Linux.  Gaming.  Hospitality.  Collections and billing.  Device drivers.  Direct mail.  Blah, blah, blah.)  And I've been doing it a really long time.

I haven't gotten any kind of reply at all from any of them.  Nothing.  At all.

Meanwhile, I'm getting bombarded by phone calls from places I would rather not live, given the choice.  I guess the Portland area isn't that bad, but most of the work over there is "project" work, with 3-18 months as the general period.

I'm currently working my way through the "process" with two (about to be three) firms, and it's dragging ass.  I'm past two months of interviews, testing, "cover letters" explaining why I'm fabulous, and stuff like that.  I'm expecting an offer to fall out of the sky just any old minute now.

But not from Utah.

What is it you guys do, anyway?  And do I want a piece of that action?

Regarding "qualified" developers, I have a resume with truckloads of experience in things I was not "qualified" to do when I started them.  I wasn't "qualified" as a data warehouse programmer when I wrote my first one for a national brand.  I wasn't "qualified" as an embedded engineer when I took my first full time gig doing that.  I learned it on the job.  I've learned all of it on the job.

Nowadays, I find more and more "must have 3 years experience coding in [random language du jour]" and very little "must be willing to learn new stuff."  My whole damned career has been "learning new stuff."

Oh, look.  I seem to be ranting.

Anyway . . .

What is it you guys do?

[lupinus]

If I held the purse strings, things would be much different. Unfortunately the bean counters and upper management just see the salary difference, not the quality difference.

"Why would we hire one developer in the U.S. for $75K when we can hire three for that in Bangalore?"

Nevermind that your "high-paid" developers in the U.S. end up spending more time and money fixing what the Bangalore team did than you ever saved . . .

Yep.

We "lost via attrition" half our domestic crew and hired a bunch of guys in India to handle our support issues. Usually you end up wasting your time with them all day while they tell you to try the same thing over and over so you can send them yet another useless log. Because they can't even figure out how to get it themselves.

The vast majority of the time this drags on long enough that the three different systems communicating with each other finally sync up several hours later when something that's been stuck decides to run. "Oh working yes! Fixed weee!" No dude, no, the sync finally decided to run on it's own six hours late instead of you manually initializing it. Or they hand it off to the domestic folks "for further review" and they do their voodoo and have it working in five minutes. Where we used to be able to just give the same domestic folks a call and have it fixed in about ten minutes since you had to tack on an extra five for them to rule out the stuff the Indian folks just spent six hours screwing with.

[HankB]

The problem with a lot of companies who "can't find" the help they need is that they want expert/experienced talent willing to work for an entry level salary.

Hence the push for more "educated" immigrants and more H1B visas, so they can get engineers and scientists willing to work for a daily ration of fish heads and rice.

[White Horseradish]

"Why would we hire one developer in the U.S. for $75K when we can hire three for that in Bangalore?"

To be fair, there are some good Indian IT people, but every one I've come across was in US already.

[MillCreek]

The problem with a lot of companies who "can't find" the help they need is that they want expert/experienced talent willing to work for an entry level salary.

Hence the push for more "educated" immigrants and more H1B visas, so they can get engineers and scientists willing to work for a daily ration of fish heads and rice.

This is pretty much exactly the thought up here as to why Microsoft is pushing this.

[Tallpine]

If I held the purse strings, things would be much different. Unfortunately the bean counters and upper management just see the salary difference, not the quality difference.

"Why would we hire one developer in the U.S. for $75K when we can hire three for that in Bangalore?"

Nevermind that your "high-paid" developers in the U.S. end up spending more time and money fixing what the Bangalore team did than you ever saved . . .

Yep.

We "lost via attrition" half our domestic crew and hired a bunch of guys in India to handle our support issues. Usually you end up wasting your time with them all day while they tell you to try the same thing over and over so you can send them yet another useless log. Because they can't even figure out how to get it themselves.

The vast majority of the time this drags on long enough that the three different systems communicating with each other finally sync up several hours later when something that's been stuck decides to run. "Oh working yes! Fixed weee!" No dude, no, the sync finally decided to run on it's own six hours late instead of you manually initializing it. Or they hand it off to the domestic folks "for further review" and they do their voodoo and have it working in five minutes. Where we used to be able to just give the same domestic folks a call and have it fixed in about ten minutes since you had to tack on an extra five for them to rule out the stuff the Indian folks just spent six hours screwing with.

All of the above, plus the fact that I cannot understand much of anything they say.  I sort of get a word now and then like "and" or "okay" which leads me to believe that they at least think that they are speaking English.  I can pick up more understanding from Radio nan Ghaidheal  

[Marnoot]

To be fair, there are some good Indian IT people, but every one I've come across was in US already.

That has been my experience for the most part. We do have a couple good ones currently in Banagalore, but they're in the minority.

What is it you guys do?

PM inbound.

[lupinus]

All of the above, plus the fact that I cannot understand much of anything they say.  I sort of get a word now and then like "and" or "okay" which leads me to believe that they at least think that they are speaking English.  I can pick up more understanding from Radio nan Ghaidheal  

I'm often tempted to make up vaguely English sounding words or hit up the "words not used in 150 years" dictionary.

I figure I can't understand 3/4 of what they say and they probably don't know the meaning of 3/4 of what I say so I might as well have some fun with it.

Or try and see if they can hook me up with their wives korma recipe.

[Tallpine]

I'm often tempted to make up vaguely English sounding words or hit up the "words not used in 150 years" dictionary.

I figure I can't understand 3/4 of what they say and they probably don't know the meaning of 3/4 of what I say so I might as well have some fun with it.

Or try and see if they can hook me up with their wives korma recipe.

If you say that you don't understand, they just repeat the same gibberish all over again.   

When they talk too fast, I just  talk   real    slow     when      it       gets        to         be          my           turn.

[slingshot]

The problem with a lot of companies who "can't find" the help they need is that they want expert/experienced talent willing to work for an entry level salary.

Hence the push for more "educated" immigrants and more H1B visas, so they can get engineers and scientists willing to work for a daily ration of fish heads and rice.

There lies the crux of the issue with immigration.  All things are not equal.  It is all about controlling labor costs and still having sufficient talent, competence, and ability.  Many of the foreign engineers appear to be very good on paper.  But the "do" part is often lacking.