Author Topic: ST-TNG question  (Read 3762 times)

AZRedhawk44

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ST-TNG question
« on: June 30, 2013, 11:58:10 AM »
Fistful and all you smart people that know things about Star Trek:


Given that we know the Federation got rid of money at some point prior to Kirk and McCoy, as we learned in the Star Trek IV movie... and that ST-TNG is set in a point in time after ST-IV...

Watch the first episode of ST-TNG.  Tell me how Doctor Crusher is going "shopping" at the mall of a Federation outpost, without money?

Did the Federation evolve out of its socialist utopia and re-embrace currency and meritocracy?
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Fitz

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Re: ST-TNG question
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2013, 12:05:59 PM »
The no currency thing comes and goes. It's not strictly adhered to

Plus, other societies they interact with have money. See DS9 and gold pressed latinum
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lee n. field

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Re: ST-TNG question
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2013, 01:11:31 PM »
Maybe it's something like Frederik Pohl's Midas Plague.  Production is high, items are free for the taking, but consumption is required.  Only the well off get to slack off into a simple and austere lifestyle.  Beverly is on the shopping treadmill because she has to be.
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lupinus

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Re: ST-TNG question
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2013, 01:25:19 PM »
The lack of money has been inconsistent. At times, they basically reference no money, at other the reference credits and as you mentioned such things as shopping. And there seem to be more universal currencies like gold pressed latinum, and barter/trade also seems to happen frequently.

The underlying gist seems to be that, within the federation anyway, that money is no longer a driving force behind ones occupation. It would seem that the culture of the federation understands the need to be productive, just not with compensation as the primary driver.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: ST-TNG question
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2013, 02:30:40 PM »
Another question would be, why sell things at a mall, when things can be "replicated"? Assuming the vendor's purpose is to distribute designs/objects that the shoppers wouldn't think of themselves, couldn't the design, or the replicator program, whatever, be transmitted to wherever the shopper is, or to their replicator? Maybe the "mall" is actually a runway or demonstration hall, where cool stuff can be shown off to its best advantage?

Wait, why are we trying to make Star Trek make sense?  :facepalm: I just watched that "Skin of Evil" episode where Mr. So-and-so is laying there half-alive in the wrecked shuttle for the whole episode, but Counselor Troi makes no effort to help him. It's not a show that strives to make any sense.
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Devonai

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Re: ST-TNG question
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2013, 06:37:57 PM »
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TommyGunn

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Re: ST-TNG question
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2013, 06:41:50 PM »
Another question would be, why sell things at a mall, when things can be "replicated"? Assuming the vendor's purpose is to distribute designs/objects that the shoppers wouldn't think of themselves, couldn't the design, or the replicator program, whatever, be transmitted to wherever the shopper is, or to their replicator? Maybe the "mall" is actually a runway or demonstration hall, where cool stuff can be shown off to its best advantage?

Wait, why are we trying to make Star Trek make sense?  :facepalm: I just watched that "Skin of Evil" episode where Mr. So-and-so is laying there half-alive in the wrecked shuttle for the whole episode, but Counselor Troi makes no effort to help him. It's not a show that strives to make any sense.


Seems to me Troi was UNABLE to help the person trapped in that shuttle......

We are apparantly headed for a cash-less society.  We use credit and debit cards so we buy things without passing $$ back and forth.  But the transaction still takes place electronically --and we still have the concept of the dollar.
It seems to me I recall in the Federation they use "credits" as the equivelent idea.
The idea of society as having gotten away from the "greed" of capitalism as explained by Jen-Luc Picard in one episode was one of the more "socialistic" aspects of trek that disappointed me.
In the original series these topics did not arise.  However in some novelizations set during that era they may have touched on the matter, yet the novels were never "canon."
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AJ Dual

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Re: ST-TNG question
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2013, 11:14:05 PM »
It seems to me that in a Kardashev Type I or higher post-scarcity civilization it would be a two-tier "economy".  Anything that can be auto-produced or replicated is essentially "free" save for the energy needed to produce the item, and the energy to produce the replicator etc.

I can sort of see how that would eliminate the need for currency, or even electronic fiat currencies. So when someone from the Federation boastfully says "We don't need/use money", I always took it as being unspoken that they really meant "We don't need/use money to LIVE."

However, there would always be a higher-tier economy, for items, systems, or services that cannot be directly replicated. Historical antiques of original provenance, or items of artistic merit come to mind. Personal services, such as hand-cooked meals by a famous chef, or even just a popular local restaurant, where food cooked over heat, cut by hand, from local "real" produce and meats would be another. Or industrial arts, where a certain designer's vision is more appreciated than the simple basic functionality an AI or an expert system may turn out.

Housing would be another. Everyone/anyone can get as many square meters as they might reasonably want for "free". However if you want a cabin on a lake, to be alone on a prairie, a certain view of the San Fransisco Starfleet HQ and the Academy grounds, it seems reasonable that you may have to trade or pay extra for that.

And  people with skills, or unique abilities, they may care more about fame and appreciation than the money of this higher tier economy, a less altruistic but still non-material way of the old "we strive to better ourselves and humanity"-saw that got trotted out on the show. And we DO already have some parallels to this already, such as the massive amounts of time and effort that get poured into some internet/software/technological open-source projects. Instead of privatizing it, it's given away for free, just for the recognition, or the desire to "change the world" with whatever it is they've created. And if there is monetization of the work, it's a higher-tier solution, say someone like Linus Torvaldis, where they then consult, get speaking fees because of their fame, or write books or whatever...

Or look at the U.S. Military... What does some E-whatever in the Army or Marines get paid fighting or being overseas in AWOT, and compare that then to the six figures some hired-gun from Dyncorp gets? And it's an all-volunteer military, nobody's been drafted into it since 'Nam.

Although granted, the guy at Dyncorp would probably never get hired if he didn't have a successful combat arms stint in the .mil first...

So I always assumed that in the Federation, you didn't need any money to wake up in the morning in your home, turn on the lights, have the replicator make you coffee and scrambled eggs, but you still darn well did need money if you wanted an original Rembrandt painting, and a cabin in the woods to hang it in, with your own pond to fish and swim in, vs. some apartment in an mega-rise arcology with a community pool somewhere.
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LadySmith

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Re: ST-TNG question
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2013, 03:53:54 AM »
There is no power in the 'verse that can stop women from shopping in malls.  =)
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lupinus

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Re: ST-TNG question
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2013, 05:25:44 AM »
I'm pretty well in line with AJ on this one, and if you take the series as a whole that seems to be about it (especially post Roddenberry).

That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

lee n. field

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Re: ST-TNG question
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2013, 08:39:28 AM »
There is no power in the 'verse that can stop women from shopping in malls.  =)

Shopping is a social experience.  Even if everything is free, it's still better done in a social context.

It could be that the fabricators aren't the sort of thing one can have around the house in normal circumstances.  Maybe it takes a lor of energy.  Replicators on the Enterprise have whatever powers the warp engines around to tap off of, not available to Joe Drone's flat in the arcology.
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Re: Re: ST-TNG question
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2013, 10:41:49 AM »
Replicators were available household items.

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Ben

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Re: ST-TNG question
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2013, 12:23:20 PM »
I wager 5000 Quatloos that you are all nerds.
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Re: ST-TNG question
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2013, 03:34:11 PM »
I wager 5000 Quatloos that you are all nerds.

I'll see that with 500 Renns.
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lupinus

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Re: ST-TNG question
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2013, 05:49:30 PM »
Pft. Gold Pressed Latinum bitches
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Ben

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Re: ST-TNG question
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2013, 07:12:41 PM »
Pft. Gold Pressed Latinum bitches

Your mother wears army boots and clothes.

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Parker Dean

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Re: ST-TNG question
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2013, 07:49:34 PM »
This seems to fall under the "Gene's Worst Ideas" category. Even those that want to spend way to much time to come up with an in-universe explanation can't come to a consensus. The reason is, of course, simple. The idea was never really hashed out, Gene just wanted to introduce another utopian aspect to the series, and money is decidedly not a part of Utopia.

As for an in-universe explanation, I contend that we simply don't know enough of how the Federation works to be able to say. Honestly we've only seen a very small portion of the Federation consisting mostly of overachieving Type A's. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

MechAg94

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Re: ST-TNG question
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2013, 08:40:58 PM »
To me, it is a typical liberal thought process.  Shallow ideas that sound great, but they lack the depth or knowledge to really make them happen beyond simply dictating it.  There any number of ways they could have explained it, but never did beyond a few arrogant condescending sentences. 
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AJ Dual

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Re: ST-TNG question
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2013, 12:04:34 AM »
This seems to fall under the "Gene's Worst Ideas" category. Even those that want to spend way to much time to come up with an in-universe explanation can't come to a consensus. The reason is, of course, simple. The idea was never really hashed out, Gene just wanted to introduce another utopian aspect to the series, and money is decidedly not a part of Utopia.

As for an in-universe explanation, I contend that we simply don't know enough of how the Federation works to be able to say. Honestly we've only seen a very small portion of the Federation consisting mostly of overachieving Type A's. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

This...

To me, it is a typical liberal thought process.  Shallow ideas that sound great, but they lack the depth or knowledge to really make them happen beyond simply dictating it.  There any number of ways they could have explained it, but never did beyond a few arrogant condescending sentences.  

With an even bigger helping of this.

I or anyone else can fill in the gaps, but it really was just a bunch of Leftist-derp on the part of Roddenberry. Which is easy to do when you're a Hollywood 1%'er...
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 12:08:07 AM by AJ Dual »
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zahc

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Re: ST-TNG question
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2013, 12:21:47 AM »
Humans are naturally competitive, and will never change.

There is nothing new under the sun.

The idea that technology can supply man's wants is technology-worship.

By the standards of previous generations, technology has already enabled people in first-world countries to have everything any man could ever want for practically free. It doesn't matter.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: ST-TNG question
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2013, 12:27:20 AM »
To me, it is a typical liberal thought process.  Shallow ideas that sound great, but they lack the depth or knowledge to really make them happen beyond simply dictating it.  There any number of ways they could have explained it, but never did beyond a few arrogant condescending sentences. 

Well, yeah.

They're very proud of themselves for not caring about money or possessions. They sound like 1st-worlders bragging to 3rd-worlders that they've evolved beyond worrying about starvation or nakedness.
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MechAg94

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Re: ST-TNG question
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2013, 09:37:17 AM »
Well, yeah.

They're very proud of themselves for not caring about money or possessions. They sound like 1st-worlders bragging to 3rd-worlders that they've evolved beyond worrying about starvation or nakedness.
Yeah, but as soon as you try to take away their own money or possessions, they suddenly become very possessive and champions of their own private property. 
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Ben

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Re: ST-TNG question
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2013, 09:55:52 AM »
Yeah, but as soon as you try to take away their own money or possessions, they suddenly become very possessive and champions of their own private property. 

Funny how that works. Also, if you're stuck going to a group work lunch with them, they'll spend all kinds of time calculating the bill so they don't pay a penny more than their exact share, and/or stiff the tip, and/or try and pay less than they owe. Come to think of it, they're kinda like Ferengi.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: ST-TNG question
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2013, 11:03:40 AM »
Funny how that works. Also, if you're stuck going to a group work lunch with them, they'll spend all kinds of time calculating the bill so they don't pay a penny more than their exact share, and/or stiff the tip, and/or try and pay less than they owe. Come to think of it, they're kinda like Ferengi.

You've taken lunch with Starfleet officers? Fascinating.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: ST-TNG question
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2013, 11:08:29 AM »
You've taken lunch with Starfleet officers? Fascinating.

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