Author Topic: There's No Reason to Believe They're Not Stolen  (Read 2114 times)

Ben

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There's No Reason to Believe They're Not Stolen
« on: September 06, 2013, 10:56:44 AM »
This is an "open carry" video that popped up on my Youtube recommendations. No reason to watch the whole 20min video. The guys doing the open carrying at a San Antonio Starbucks look like they may not have had their act together for what they wanted to do, but they were completely polite with the cops. The part that really bugged me came at 4:30. The lead cop wants to check the serial numbers on their guns. One of the guys asks, "Why do you want to see our serial numbers?" Cop replies, "To check for stolen." "Do you have reason to believe they're stolen?" "There's no reason to believe they're not."

Regardless of the open carry thing or one's position on it, that just bugged the hell out of me. It's pretty much the opposite of how LE should conduct business in America, especially in a situation where the cops have to absolutely know the  guys aren't some kind of gangbangers or career criminals. The other thing that bugged me was that the cops kept saying, "There are violent crime calls coming in right now that we can't go to because we're here". If there was an actual violent crime (or multiple crimes as alluded to) happening right then, they should have done what they would do if they were pulling someone over for a traffic ticket - blow off the ticket and head for the serious crime.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN0GcahEvIc
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: There's No Reason to Believe They're Not Stolen
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2013, 10:59:33 AM »
Proof that they are culture warriors acting on behalf of agenda pushers, rather than servants of the public.
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Tallpine

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Re: There's No Reason to Believe They're Not Stolen
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2013, 11:08:12 AM »
Wow.  So that means if you are sitting at home having dinner, the cops have no reason to believe that you did not break in and are trespassing in someone else's home?  :facepalm:
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

SADShooter

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Re: There's No Reason to Believe They're Not Stolen
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2013, 11:08:31 AM »
Wow.  So that means if you are sitting at home having dinner, the cops have no reason to believe that you did not break in and are trespassing in someone else's home steal the food on your table?  :facepalm:

Guilty until proven innocent. Nice.
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Ben

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Re: There's No Reason to Believe They're Not Stolen
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2013, 11:27:00 AM »
Wow.  So that means if you are sitting at home having dinner, the cops have no reason to believe that you did not break in and are trespassing in someone else's home?  :facepalm:

Or even directly to the incident - the three guys all had cell phones on them as well. Why weren't they asked for the serial numbers on their phones?
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

Tallpine

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Re: There's No Reason to Believe They're Not Stolen
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2013, 11:31:42 AM »
Or even directly to the incident - the three guys all had cell phones on them as well. Why weren't they asked for the serial numbers on their phones?

They could be wearing stolen underwear  ;/
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

AZRedhawk44

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Re: There's No Reason to Believe They're Not Stolen
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2013, 11:38:54 AM »
Rifle OC... wow.  I thought this was CA at first, and it was pistol OC.  Then I watched the video.

The implied extortion of "give me serial # or else you get disorderly conduct ticket" is pretty low.

Good on these guys for taking the ticket.  Sounds like they will fight the ticket.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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Ben

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Re: There's No Reason to Believe They're Not Stolen
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2013, 11:45:36 AM »
Rifle OC... wow.  I thought this was CA at first, and it was pistol OC.  Then I watched the video.

Actually, CA cops aren't that bad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMMPV4D6cs0
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

AZRedhawk44

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Re: There's No Reason to Believe They're Not Stolen
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2013, 11:47:09 AM »
Hah!  11:45 gets interesting.

Starbucks manager complaining of criminal trespass.  Video taping on property, OC rifles in the store, et cetera.

These guys earlier were going off on the "Starbucks supports 2A" false mantra, which I've said before is very untrue.

Starbucks supports "leave folks the heck alone, live and let live, in accordance with all applicable law."  They're not pro 2A.

And 16:10 is hilarious.  They called the wrong city's police department as a courtesy heads-up before they went to the wrong Starbucks that they didn't call ahead of time.  Just a clusterhump of an activist effort.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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I reject your authoritah!

RoadKingLarry

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Re: There's No Reason to Believe They're Not Stolen
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2013, 04:46:31 PM »
Unwarranted exercise of constitutional rights. :police:
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zxcvbob

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Re: There's No Reason to Believe They're Not Stolen
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2013, 06:11:43 PM »
You have to take the grips off my carry gun to see the serial number.  You would be able to see it thru a little window in the grips but I put an address label over the number, and the grips cover all the edges of the label.  I think I have another set of grips that don't even have the window.
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vaskidmark

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Re: There's No Reason to Believe They're Not Stolen
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2013, 06:40:31 PM »
The internetz is full of speculatiion that cops are building a gun registry via the "check the serial numbers to see if they are stolen" ploy.

Regardless of the reason, I have been the guest of honor at such an event precisely once - and it turned out rather entertaining when I asked the cop to arrest me if he had reason to believe the gun was stolen.  He responded that he needed to check the serial number to see if it was stolen.  I responded that if he had reason to believe .....  Sadly a supervisor (sergeant) came upon the scene and applied his superior police logic by explaining to the cop what game I was playing.  I know the "I'm sorry we bothered you" hurt as it came across his lips.  I can only imagine what conversation he might have had with the cop after they departed.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: There's No Reason to Believe They're Not Stolen
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2013, 06:49:05 PM »
Can you 'splayn exactly what game you were playing?  I'm not following what the end point would have been.  Trying to make him look like an idiot to the DA?
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Hawkmoon

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Re: There's No Reason to Believe They're Not Stolen
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2013, 10:21:17 PM »
Can you 'splayn exactly what game you were playing?  I'm not following what the end point would have been.  Trying to make him look like an idiot to the DA?

Laying a trap for a false arrest lawsuit.
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230RN

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Re: There's No Reason to Believe They're Not Stolen
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2013, 10:49:15 PM »
That business of a covered serial number bothers me, 'cause I've got a set of grips I want to put on a revolver which would cover the S/N.  I was thinking of taking a Bubba tool (hand grinder) to them to open a visual port to where the serial number would be.

So: is a covered serial number illegal?

Terry
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Regolith

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Re: There's No Reason to Believe They're Not Stolen
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2013, 11:00:03 PM »
So: is a covered serial number illegal?
Terry

Not as far as I know. You just can't destroy or deface it permanently.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: There's No Reason to Believe They're Not Stolen
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2013, 12:25:23 AM »
So, are we all OK with laws that make it illegal to deface serial numbers? Just curious. Hadn't thought about it before.
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Regolith

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Re: There's No Reason to Believe They're Not Stolen
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2013, 12:54:40 AM »
So, are we all OK with laws that make it illegal to deface serial numbers? Just curious. Hadn't thought about it before.

Not a fan of the law. SN's weren't required until '68, and there are still a whole passel of firearms made prior that (legally) have no serial numbers. I don't think that the law helps all that much, and it makes it much easier to create a firearms registry.

OTOH, it's probably not worth trying to fight at this stage. Maybe in a few decades when we've gotten the lower-hanging fruit.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 01:26:29 AM by Regolith »
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. - Thomas Jefferson

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt the Younger

Perfectly symmetrical violence never solved anything. - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth

Perd Hapley

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Re: There's No Reason to Believe They're Not Stolen
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2013, 01:16:23 AM »
There's no reason to believe that I'm not a serial killer with a massive meth lab and an underground brothel.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: There's No Reason to Believe They're Not Stolen
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2013, 01:30:14 AM »
So: is a covered serial number illegal?

Nope. As long as you don't alter the serial number (in other words, you leave it where the manufacturer put it), you haven't broken the law.
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Pharmacology

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Re: There's No Reason to Believe They're Not Stolen
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2013, 01:30:22 AM »
There's an open carry event at the capitol in the morning.  If I weren't working, I'd show up just to see the spectacle.

It'd be great to walk around with a stripped AR lower hanging from a cord around the neck.

vaskidmark

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Re: There's No Reason to Believe They're Not Stolen
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2013, 06:38:16 AM »
Can you 'splayn exactly what game you were playing?  I'm not following what the end point would have been.  Trying to make him look like an idiot to the DA?

No, not setting up a false arrest lawsuit, although that might have been an outcome had the cop gone all the way down that road.

It was the "either arrrest me or leave me alone" game.

If the cop has any suspicion he can articulate then he only needs to worry that a court would not find it reasonable.  Most of the time cops get a pass on whatever RAS they articulate.  And yes I know the cop does not need to tell me what their RAS is before arresting me.  So, if he had any notion that the gun was stolen, go ahead and arrest me for possession of stolen property.

The sergeant quickly realized that if there was any AS, regardless if it was R or not, the cop would have arrested me.  Instead, the cop was willing to stand there and try to see if I would let him get away with something.  The longer he tried the worse he looked - the sergeant put a stop to things in order top preserve as much dignity for the PD as was possible.

I blame WalMart for some of this.  I have no need to show the greeter my receipt in order to leave the store.  It is not about being polite - it is about being accused of shoplifting.  But most folks comply with the greeter's request/demand because they do not know any better.  I have very politely sat on the benches in the entrance area and waited for management and loss prevention to show up - after I called the store and asked for them to come meet me.  I clearly stated that I was refusing to show the greeter my receipt and would be happy to wait while they conferred with the greeter to decide if they believed there was reaason to believe I was shoplifting.  Again, not looking for a cheap false arrest* lawsuit but to express my uwillingness to play along with their game of wanting me to prove I am not shoplifting.  It's supposed to work the other way around.

stay safe.

* - in Virginia store security can arrest for shoplifting.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.