Author Topic: Accurate fonts  (Read 3017 times)

zahc

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,813
Accurate fonts
« on: September 21, 2013, 07:12:27 PM »
For technical documents, I would like to standardize on a typeface. This is a needed thing, because I can't keep letting people create technical documents and specifications in whatever typeface strikes their fancy that day.

Any standard is better than no standard. But of course, I have to justify the eventual standard.

Criteria:

--that "I" and "l" look different, and that "O" and "0" look different, and that "7" and "2" look different, etc. These are REAL issues that have caused monetary loss in the past.
--font should be unencumbered by design patents or trademarks etc (ideas on this?)
--fixed-width MIGHT be worth doing, simply because they can be used for formatted plaintext and for programming. Ideally I would like to standardize a fixed- and a variable-width font.
--THEN it should be pretty. Things don't need to be ugly just because we are engineers. I could standardize on OCR-A, but I don't want to do that to everyone.

All the font-nerd literature I have been able to Google up has been primarily focused on how to make things look pretty. DIN 1451 was a German standard for road signs and military lettering that looks pleasant enough, and it seems to do pretty well with the l/I problem, but I would really like zeros that have slashes in them.
Maybe a rare occurence, but then you only have to get murdered once to ruin your whole day.
--Tallpine

Regolith

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,171
Re: Accurate fonts
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2013, 07:37:33 PM »
Will these documents be printed or stored electronically?

Edit: looking around, DejaVu Sans Mono seems to fit all of your criteria, at least for electronic documents. I don't know how well it will print.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DejaVu_Sans_Mono

Edit2: Since the above image doesn't show the capital "I", I made an image that specifically shows the characters you were concerned about:

« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 08:16:07 PM by Regolith »
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. - Thomas Jefferson

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt the Younger

Perfectly symmetrical violence never solved anything. - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth

freakazoid

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,243
Re: Accurate fonts
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2013, 07:48:36 PM »
What fonts do the 7 and 2 look the same?
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

Brad Johnson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,143
  • Witty, charming, handsome, and completely insane.
Re: Accurate fonts
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2013, 08:59:17 PM »
Will these documents be printed or stored electronically?

Edit: looking around, DejaVu Sans Mono seems to fit all of your criteria, at least for electronic documents. I don't know how well it will print.


Problem is, Deja Vu Sans Mono isn't a "standard" font.  The file can only be opened on machines with the font installed.  This can be a real PITA.

OCR-A is a standard Office font.  Very "digital" looking, but it's that way for a reason.  Courier would also be a workable solution and it's a little less technical-ey looking than OCR.

Brad
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 09:05:37 PM by Brad Johnson »
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

Regolith

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,171
Re: Accurate fonts
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2013, 09:51:45 PM »
Problem is, Deja Vu Sans Mono isn't a "standard" font.  The file can only be opened on machines with the font installed.  This can be a real PITA.

OCR-A is a standard Office font.  Very "digital" looking, but it's that way for a reason.  Courier would also be a workable solution and it's a little less technical-ey looking than OCR.

Brad

Because it's an open source font, it can be installed on any system that may need it, and I don't know of any of the standard fonts installed on Windows or Mac systems that meet all of his specifications. From the sound of things, he was already willing to go outside of pre-installed fonts (A German Ministry of Transport font isn't exactly "standard") and was looking for something that looks good and is open source, so this works.

Courier New doesn't really meet his specifications; specifically, the O and the 0 aren't well distinguished. OCR-A is ugly as hell.

ETA: DejaVu Sans Mono comes with OpenOffice (which is how it got installed on my system) and several Linux distros. IIRC Zach's a Linux fan, so he probably already has it on hand to check out.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 09:56:55 PM by Regolith »
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. - Thomas Jefferson

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt the Younger

Perfectly symmetrical violence never solved anything. - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,408
Re: Accurate fonts
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2013, 10:02:29 PM »
My undergraduate training was as a graphic designer, and my significant other for many years was a graphic designer working in a company that published legal and technical books. We did a couple of books together for friends. I've read up more than a little on typography.

In general, serif typefaces are easier to read than sans serif typefaces. Beyond that, it's much more likely in a sans serif typeface that the upper case 'I' will look like a lower case 'L'. So ... if this is going to include paragraphs rather than just titles and captions -- go with a serif type face.

You have a good point about "standard" fonts and computers. A few years ago I designed an entire suite of letterheads, business cards, and other "stuff" for a friend and sent him the files. Several months later he sent me a screen shot of a letter he had written on the letterhead, and it was a jumbled-up train wreck of a disaster. Turns out he had "optimized" his computer by deleting almost ALL the fonts that ship with Microsoft Windows. And then he diidn't know how to reinstall them, so I had to walk him through that.

Bottom line -- go with Times New Roman. It isn't copyrighted, or Microsoft couldn't call it that. (Notice that Microsoft calls their sans serif typeface "Arial." It's identical to "Helvetica," but somebody has the rights to "Helvetica" so Microsoft can't use that name without paying a licensing fee. It's a curiosity about typefaces that you can pretty freely copy a typeface, but you can't srteal the name.

Times New Roman is ubiquitous. Just about any system anywhere will either recognize it and map it correctly, or recognize it and have a pre-mapped substitute for it that should map correctly. You won't win a prize for originality, but you'll avoid a LOT of headaches.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Brad Johnson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,143
  • Witty, charming, handsome, and completely insane.
Re: Accurate fonts
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2013, 10:13:20 PM »
Because it's an open source font, it can be installed on any system that may need it, and I don't know of any of the standard fonts installed on Windows or Mac systems that meet all of his specifications. From the sound of things, he was already willing to go outside of pre-installed fonts (A German Ministry of Transport font isn't exactly "standard") and was looking for something that looks good and is open source, so this works.

Courier New doesn't really meet his specifications; specifically, the O and the 0 aren't well distinguished. OCR-A is ugly as hell.

ETA: DejaVu Sans Mono comes with OpenOffice (which is how it got installed on my system) and several Linux distros. IIRC Zach's a Linux fan, so he probably already has it on hand to check out.

If he's using for himself he can go with whatever floats his boat. If he's developing it for an employer, especiallyif it's an employer that's using the chosen font in development of projects for customers, it's a sure fire way to lose business. If I paid someone to develop me a product that required I go around to every computer in the place and install a special font, open source or not, I'd reward their creativity by enhancing their unfunded free time opportunities.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

Regolith

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,171
Re: Accurate fonts
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2013, 10:25:45 PM »
In general, serif typefaces are easier to read than sans serif typefaces. Beyond that, it's much more likely in a sans serif typeface that the upper case 'I' will look like a lower case 'L'. So ... if this is going to include paragraphs rather than just titles and captions -- go with a serif type face.

That was the theory, but they're finding out it's not so cut and dried. Sans-serif actually tends to be more readable for non-print applications, and it's not really clear that serif is better for print.

Bottom line -- go with Times New Roman. It isn't copyrighted, or Microsoft couldn't call it that. (Notice that Microsoft calls their sans serif typeface "Arial." It's identical to "Helvetica," but somebody has the rights to "Helvetica" so Microsoft can't use that name without paying a licensing fee. It's a curiosity about typefaces that you can pretty freely copy a typeface, but you can't srteal the name.

Times New Roman is ubiquitous. Just about any system anywhere will either recognize it and map it correctly, or recognize it and have a pre-mapped substitute for it that should map correctly. You won't win a prize for originality, but you'll avoid a LOT of headaches.

Times New Roman is in fact still licensed by Monotype. Microsoft pays them to bundle it with their OS. Arial is slightly different than Helvetica, specifically to avoid IP infringements.

Problem with Times New Roman is the O and 0 aren't well delineated, which is one of the requirements. The only MS fonts that do that are Terminal and OCR-A (kind of), and they're both really ugly. He also couldn't embed it if he wanted, which may or may not be a problem. OTOH, it is probably one of the most prevalent font faces out there, so, as you said, there wouldn't be many worries about whether or not one system or the other could open it.

If he's using for himself he can go with whatever floats his boat. If he's developing it for an employer, especiallyif it's an employer that's using the chosen font in development of projects for customers, it's a sure fire way to lose business. If I paid someone to develop me a product that required I go around to every computer in the place and install a special font, open source or not, I'd reward their creativity by enhancing their unfunded free time opportunities.

Brad

Yeah, depends on situation. If it's for internal use only, it might work. The employer might figure that the amount of time it takes to install would cost less than the money lost due to the confusion of characters. If it's also for external, then yeah, it would best to stick to something common. I kind of got the feeling he was going for an internal application, though.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 11:09:23 PM by Regolith »
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. - Thomas Jefferson

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt the Younger

Perfectly symmetrical violence never solved anything. - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth

just Warren

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,234
  • My DJ name is Heavy Cream.
Re: Accurate fonts
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2013, 10:37:33 PM »
This one? And it has the advantage of looking futuristic!

Member in Good Standing of the Spontaneous Order of the Invisible Hand.

zahc

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: Accurate fonts
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2013, 10:40:36 PM »
The documents I'm trying to clean up are internal only. However, a font that is widely available and usable is a huge bonus. The documents may be viewed on the screen or printed. Both are a concern.

That's when I found out that there isn't a font that meets my needs, which also ships with all common operating systems.

I think Deja Vu Sans Mono is easily my favorite at this point. It doesn't even look that bad in body text, for a fixed-width font. It's totally free, so that's a big bonus because it means at least it can be acquired and installed.

Maybe a rare occurence, but then you only have to get murdered once to ruin your whole day.
--Tallpine

Regolith

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,171
Re: Accurate fonts
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2013, 11:15:06 PM »
I think Deja Vu Sans Mono is easily my favorite at this point. It doesn't even look that bad in body text, for a fixed-width font. It's totally free, so that's a big bonus because it means at least it can be acquired and installed.

If you decide go with that, make sure to print off a page or two first to make sure it looks good in print. I think it should work OK, but it's hard to know until you try it.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 11:27:34 PM by Regolith »
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. - Thomas Jefferson

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt the Younger

Perfectly symmetrical violence never solved anything. - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth

lee n. field

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,638
  • tinpot megalomaniac, Paulbot, hardware goon
Re: Accurate fonts
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2013, 11:18:30 PM »
Anything wrong with Times Roman?

Quote
--that "I" and "l" look different, and that "O" and "0" look different, and that "7" and "2" look different, etc. These are REAL issues that have caused monetary loss in the past.

I love this.  You're trying to achieve the same sort of unambiguity that I try to achieve in speaking, in a tech support call.

Gee, when I was taught to type (1968) I specifically remember that it was considered acceptable to use lower case L for one, and upper case O for zero.
In thy presence is fulness of joy.
At thy right hand pleasures for evermore.

drewtam

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,985
Re: Accurate fonts
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2013, 01:18:16 AM »
Can't go wrong with Comic Sans.  =D
I’m not saying I invented the turtleneck. But I was the first person to realize its potential as a tactical garment. The tactical turtleneck! The… tactleneck!

freakazoid

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,243
Re: Accurate fonts
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2013, 01:22:26 AM »
You could go with Wingdings.  =D
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,408
Re: Accurate fonts
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2013, 01:58:29 AM »
If he's using for himself he can go with whatever floats his boat. If he's developing it for an employer, especiallyif it's an employer that's using the chosen font in development of projects for customers, it's a sure fire way to lose business. If I paid someone to develop me a product that required I go around to every computer in the place and install a special font, open source or not, I'd reward their creativity by enhancing their unfunded free time opportunities.

^^^ This. Exactly.

It doesn't matter whether or not the typeface is open source, or public domain. It needs to be something that's already on EVERYONE's computer.

Times New Roman for body text, Arial for headlines.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Accurate fonts
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2013, 10:54:43 AM »
Gee, when I was taught to type (1968) I specifically remember that it was considered acceptable to use lower case L for one, and upper case O for zero.

I seem to remember typewriters that did not even have a #1 key  =|
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Scout26

  • I'm a leaf on the wind.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,997
  • I spent a week in that town one night....
Re: Accurate fonts
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2013, 12:28:47 PM »
Can't go wrong with Comic Sans.  =D

One company I worked for, Outer Circle Products - aka Arctic Zone Coolers and Lunchboxes, used that as their standard type face (as in every damn document used it) because it was "Fun" and "Hip" and we were supposed to be a "Fun" and "Hip" company.   ;/ ;/
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

TechMan

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,562
  • Yes, your moderation has been outsourced.
Re: Accurate fonts
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2013, 12:37:47 PM »
One company I worked for, Outer Circle Products - aka Arctic Zone Coolers and Lunchboxes, used that as their standard type face (as in every damn document used it) because it was "Fun" and "Hip" and we were supposed to be a "Fun" and "Hip" company.   ;/ ;/


Fun and Hip can also be *expletive deleted*ing annoying...and I gather you believe that as well.
Quote
Hawkmoon - Never underestimate another person's capacity for stupidity. Any time you think someone can't possibly be that dumb ... they'll prove you wrong.

Bacon and Eggs - A day's work for a chicken; A lifetime commitment for a pig.
Stupidity will always be its own reward.
Bad decisions make good stories.

Quote
Viking - The problem with the modern world is that there aren't really any predators eating stupid people.

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,991
Re: Accurate fonts
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2013, 01:28:19 PM »
Problem is, Deja Vu Sans Mono isn't a "standard" font.  The file can only be opened on machines with the font installed.  This can be a real PITA.

OCR-A is a standard Office font.  Very "digital" looking, but it's that way for a reason.  Courier would also be a workable solution and it's a little less technical-ey looking than OCR.

Brad

Our company releases product documentation in PDF format, not Office format.  Our documentation person can use any font she feels appropriate, and when she is done creating the prototype she exports it to PDF.

PDF does not care what fonts are installed on the local computer that ultimately reads the document.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44,761
  • I Am Inimical
Re: Accurate fonts
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2013, 01:31:49 PM »
Try taking a look at Arial Narrow. It's a san serif font, and there is quite a bit of difference between the 0 and O and 1 and l. It's also a decent font to read.

My personal favorite font is Palation Linotype, but it's not something I'd consider using for formal documentation work.

Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

Scout26

  • I'm a leaf on the wind.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,997
  • I spent a week in that town one night....
Re: Accurate fonts
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2013, 03:15:44 PM »

Fun and Hip can also be *expletive deleted* annoying...and I gather you believe that as well.

I ran the warehouse on the Westside of Chicago.  I did not work at the "Fun", "Hip" and "Trendy" corporate office in downtown Chicago.

I dealt with forklift drivers and warehouse workers who were either Gangster Disciples or Latin Kings.  I also dealt with truckers, and trucking companies.

None of which was "Fun", "Hip" or "Trendy".

I was in the old Western Electric Hawthorne Works cable plant.  Not a newly remodeled (to be "Fun", "Hip" and "Trendy" building in a gentrifying area of Chicago (down the street from "The Crow Bar" the place where all the "Fun", "Hip" and "Trendy" people went to see and be seen.)  The corporate offices contained the designers and marketing people so everything had to be "Fun", "Hip" and "Trendy" so they would be inspired.

Inspired to generally do more stupid *expletive deleted*it that made my life hell.   (Or at least tried to).  Since the Corporate office was right on the Chicago River, I often voiced my opinion that it needed a Viking raid.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,047
  • APS Risk Manager
Re: Accurate fonts
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2013, 03:45:25 PM »
Not that there is anything wrong with going to someplace called 'The Crow Bar'.   :-*
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.