Man Claims Home While Family Visits Dying Relative

[Ben]

I've heard of this happening in various parts of the country, but not with one guy getting away with it at least a dozen times without being prosecuted in any way (story says he got a breaking and entering "citation", whatever that means).

I'm one of those "my home is my castle" guys. At the risk of spouting Internet bravado, I don't know that I could sit back and let someone occupy my home in this manner while the legal authorities "sort it out".

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/12/01/man-lays-claim-to-home-family-out-town-visiting-dying-relative/?intcmp=latestnews

[RevDisk]

I'm one of those "my home is my castle" guys. At the risk of spouting Internet bravado, I don't know that I could sit back and let someone occupy my home in this manner while the legal authorities "sort it out".

I'm not sure of the legality of breaching and clearing one's own home. But yea, I sure as hell would not let someone occupy my home while it gets sorted out.

[T.O.M.]

Not sure what they call themselves.  I've heard them referred to as militia types, but that term isn't accurate.  I think "common law" type is more accurate.  They are a group here in Ohio who believe that statutory law is invalid for some reason, and that as a result the common law is all that applies.  I've dealt with some in my career.  My favorite was when one guy claimed that the use of his name in the indictment and all following pleadings was a violation of his trademark, and filed a claim against me for illegal use of his trademark without license or other authority.  I'm thinking that the best legal way of dealing with this is filing a burglary charge against him.  Don't know if this case did or didn't.

I'm with you guys, though.  I come home from a trip away, and someone else is living in my home, someone is getting a beating.

[AJ Dual]

1. Try not to live somewhere where the local PD is lazy/jaded and will do the minimum to clear a call for service. i.e. "Oh, sorry 'civil matter' call a lawyer, bye..."  A "good" PD will take one look at documentation like mail, ID, ask the neighbors, and drag the offender out of the house on every last creative charge they can think of, plus throw the kitchen sink at it to hang the offender up, and give the local DA as much maneuvering room as possible.

2. This is an instance where the law, or the abuse of it is well set up to encourage people to not call the authorities and just handle things extra-judicially.

[T.O.M.]

If my trial goes away, I'll dig into this a bit and see what I can see...

[Ben]

If my trial goes away, I'll dig into this a bit and see what I can see...

It would be interesting to learn more. Maybe something is missing from the story that explains why there hasn't been more action against the home invader, like the residents didn't pay their mortgage for the last year or something? With no expertise in the law, I just can't fathom how this guy can get away with just a citation so far.

[T.O.M.]

It would be interesting to learn more. Maybe something is missing from the story that explains why there hasn't been more action against the home invader, like the residents didn't pay their mortgage for the last year or something? With no expertise in the law, I just can't fathom how this guy can get away with just a citation so far.

"Citation" is bad writing in the story.  Ohio law allows for citations to be issued only for traffic infractions and minor misdemeanor offenses.  Breaking and entering is a felony of the fifth degree.  Had to be an indictment.

[T.O.M.]

Interesting...I looked up Robert Carr in the Hamilton County Clerk of Courts web page, and all of the documents are locked because they contain sensitive information...which in layman's terms means that this situation is a mess and the clerk doesn't want to get in a jam by allowing the documents to be released all over the television, etc.

Called a buddy in Cincinnati.  Said that there is a growing group of "sovereign citizens" down in the area, claiming that not all laws apply to them unless specifically listed in COTUS.  Said that they are looking for homes in foreclosure proceedings and then trying to occupy the homes using "quiet title" to hold the bank at bay while they live in the home.  Banks don't want the places to be damaged, so they keep paying utilities while the fight goes on.  Usually, these sovereign types try and grab the vacant homes, but they appear to be growing bolder, and going after homes that are just unoccupied, but where the foreclosure legal process has been completed. 

Granted, you've got two criminal lawyers talking about civil matters, but we can't grasp the logic here...

[AJ Dual]

Granted, you've got two criminal lawyers talking about civil matters, but we can't grasp the logic here...

Generally, it’s a combination of wishful thinking/rationalization or “seeing what they want to see” in the law on the part of the Sovereign Citizen, and then it’s reinforced in their minds when whatever legal turd-pile of paperwork they generate sort of “works” because the courts etc. have to process/review the filings and claims.

My gut feeling is that it’s a very similar pathology to conspiracy theorists, i.e. “I’m special, only I see the REAL TRUTH, and filter any and all “evidence” to further my beliefs.” Etc.  Except instead of lizard people and thermite charges in the various WTC buildings, it manifests externally into all the court battles and oddball legal theories.

[TechMan]

Interesting...I looked up Robert Carr in the Hamilton County Clerk of Courts web page, and all of the documents are locked because they contain sensitive information...which in layman's terms means that this situation is a mess and the clerk doesn't want to get in a jam by allowing the documents to be released all over the television, etc.

Called a buddy in Cincinnati.  Said that there is a growing group of "sovereign citizens" down in the area, claiming that not all laws apply to them unless specifically listed in COTUS.  Said that they are looking for homes in foreclosure proceedings and then trying to occupy the homes using "quiet title" to hold the bank at bay while they live in the home.  Banks don't want the places to be damaged, so they keep paying utilities while the fight goes on.  Usually, these sovereign types try and grab the vacant homes, but they appear to be growing bolder, and going after homes that are just unoccupied, but where the foreclosure legal process has been completed. 

Granted, you've got two criminal lawyers talking about civil matters, but we can't grasp the logic here...

Yep, heard about these people last week.  They have done it 11 or so times so far as mentioned in the article.  They move in and change the locks and/or put a padlock on the property.  From the discussion I heard, I don't know how they can do a quiet title, since adverse possession has to be on going for something like 21 years (Chris correct me if I am wrong.)

[K Frame]

What amazes me is that the legal system is being so slow to resolve all of this.

All of this soverign citizen crap is quaint and cute, but the first one that tries that crap with my house is treated as a hostile home invader.

[T.O.M.]

Yep. 21 years for adverse possession property claims.

I think where this is being so...creative...is that they target homes in foreclosure.  banks, being the major corporate entities, are notoriously slow in any action in court.  The homeowner may or may not be the home owner, depending on where they are in the process.  Ugly enough to make me glad to do criminal and family law.

I've been looking, and still haven't found a situation where anyone has tried to take on a property not in foreclosure, or not actually vacant, but the homeowner just absent.

[Sergeant Bob]

What amazes me is that the legal system is being so slow to resolve all of this.

All of this soverign citizen crap is quaint and cute, but the first one that tries that crap with my house is treated as a hostile home invader.

Indeed. And, in addition to "Breaking and Entering", they should be charged with "Grand Theft".IMNSHO

[HankB]

In TX, it could be most unhealthy - perhaps terminally so - for a person to invade and attempt to occupy a private home that's temporarily unoccupied.

Vacant house, foreclosed on, owned by a bank? In that case, I think local LEOs would deal with the situation promptly, with burglary charges at the very least.

[Ben]

In TX, it could be most unhealthy - perhaps terminally so - for a person to invade and attempt to occupy a private home that's temporarily unoccupied.

Vacant house, foreclosed on, owned by a bank? In that case, I think local LEOs would deal with the situation promptly, with burglary charges at the very least.

I thought the last one of these that I read about actually happened in Texas. If I recall right, they got the guy out, but it still took time. Whatever is allowing these lowlifes to do this has to be some really sticky wicket legal loophole, but it seems to have happened enough by now that one would think there would have been action on the Federal side to protect both homeowners, and in the case of foreclosure, the bank that owns the property.

[BryanP]

Said that there is a growing group of "sovereign citizens" down in the area, claiming that not all laws apply to them unless specifically listed in COTUS.

And that's all you have to say.  Buncha friggin idealist nutjobs at best.  Buncha scammers dressing themselves up in the coats of friggin idealist nutjobs at worst.  Either way, they should be horsewhipped through the center of town and out the other side.

[SteveS]

1. Try not to live somewhere where the local PD is lazy/jaded and will do the minimum to clear a call for service. i.e. "Oh, sorry 'civil matter' call a lawyer, bye..."  A "good" PD will take one look at documentation like mail, ID, ask the neighbors, and drag the offender out of the house on every last creative charge they can think of, plus throw the kitchen sink at it to hang the offender up, and give the local DA as much maneuvering room as possible.

2. This is an instance where the law, or the abuse of it is well set up to encourage people to not call the authorities and just handle things extra-judicially.

I have a client right now that is dealing with a squatter, for lack of a better term, that the police refuse to remove.  We are having to go through the whole eviction process.  It is absolute crap.  This guy has no legal claim to the property whatsoever.

[TechMan]

I have a client right now that is dealing with a squatter, for lack of a better term, that the police refuse to remove.  We are having to go through the whole eviction process.  It is absolute crap.  This guy has no legal claim to the property whatsoever.

Eviction for a Squatter?  Wow, would have never have thunk that you would have to do an eviction for a squatter.

[Tallpine]

The purpose of police is to enforce laws, not protect citizens and their property.  

Can you imagine how much traffic ticket revenue they would lose, and how many roadside strip searches wouldn't get done, if cops go responding to every theft and burglary?  

[AZRedhawk44]

The purpose of police is to enforce laws, not protect citizens and their property.  

Can you imagine how much traffic ticket revenue they would lose, and how many roadside strip searches wouldn't get done, if cops go responding to every theft and burglary?  

They are the Hammer of the State, comrade.  The State owns us, The Hammer of the State protects us, and we shelter in the palm of its hand.  They forge us into the most efficient source of revenue for it.  Is it not a good thing to be so refined?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

it would be poorly thought out to attempt it where i live.


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[just Warren]

Well, yeah, they would have to listen to you talk about things all day. Nobody wants that.

[MillCreek]

Well, yeah, they would have to listen to you talk about things all day. Nobody wants that.

But on the upside, there would be delicious meals!

[tokugawa]

A lot of empty houses are in limbo- the mortgage is not been paid, so the" homeowner" is told to leave, but the banks do not want to foreclose because it goes  on a list of underwater loans and it makes their portfolio look bad, and  the bank is then responsible for the taxes and maintenance. I think the term is "shadow inventory".
 

[Balog]

A lot of empty houses are in limbo- the mortgage is not been paid, so the" homeowner" is told to leave, but the banks do not want to foreclose because it goes  on a list of underwater loans and it makes their portfolio look bad, and  the bank is then responsible for the taxes and maintenance. I think the term is "shadow inventory".
 

yup. The house next door to a good friend was foreclosed on, after which the former owners lived there for... 2.5 or so years. Pretty nice gig if you can get it, I could have a heck of a nest egg after a couple years with no rent or utilities.