Slavery? Draft?

[MicroBalrog]

The Engineering Corps will perform a project for Israel Railway whereby four bridges will be built to create level separations in places of road/railway crossings.  This will cost ten million shekels.
 
This appeared in Israeli newspaper from 7.9.2006. In the same article, the following was to be found:
 
Israel Railway is now examining the meaning of the one-billion budget cuts under the Five Year Development Plan.


I would like to ask the following questions:

   1. How does the utilization of the labor of unwilling persons (draftees) for such purposes differ from slavery?
   2. What is Israel doing having Five Year Plans?

[El Tejon]

1.  Degree of ownership.

2.  Israel was founded by European socialists.  Five year plans all around.

Of course, the USA is rife with "five year plans" as well, e.g. the farm bills are five year plans.  Of course, in America we even screw up socialism.  Our five year plans for agriculture produce bumper crops, not famine.

[wingnutx]

I know a Belgian guy who is here in the US to avoid the draft in his homeland.

Funny enough, he is a hardcore lefty who thinks the US is a totalitarian fascist state.

[The Rabbi]

I know a Belgian guy who is here in the US to avoid the draft in his homeland.

Funny enough, he is a hardcore lefty who thinks the US is a totalitarian fascist state.

Thats a double joke because the Belgian Army is laughable.  The WSJ did a series last year or so and found that they are nowhere near ready for war.  A lot of their positions are merely make-work jobs and political patronage.  It was enough to produce an indignant denial from their army chief of staff.  Which gave it credence in my view.

[BozemanMT]

I know a Belgian guy who is here in the US to avoid the draft in his homeland.

Funny enough, he is a hardcore lefty who thinks the US is a totalitarian fascist state.

Thats a double joke because the Belgian Army is laughable.  The WSJ did a series last year or so and found that they are nowhere near ready for war.  A lot of their positions are merely make-work jobs and political patronage.  It was enough to produce an indignant denial from their army chief of staff.  Which gave it credence in my view.

I saw that article, it was fascinating
and it was not like most of the armies were any better.

[Guest]

One of the problems with compulsory military enlistment is what the hell are you supposed to do with all the soldiers. You either give them work like this, or you get into more wars.

[Perd Hapley]

C Y, are you talking about universal service, or a draft?

[MicroBalrog]

C Y, are you talking about universal service, or a draft?

The principle is the same.

The Israeli Army is mandated by law to actually draft every healthy Jew that wants to go.

They are also mandated to accept applications from every Israeli citizen who wants to volunteer if he's of course not mentally insane. This allows Arabs, Druze, and Beduins who are so willing to 'serve the country', and it also allows Jews who are physically crippled to join the military.

However, the big problem is that the definition of 'healthy' is very wide indeed, and because they must draft all the healthy Jews, all of them end up drafted.

Ergo, totally needless desk jobs and manual labor jobs are created for them, with the carriage being, as the Israelis say, attached in front of the horses.

[Perd Hapley]

Fine, but if I understand aright, the draft as practiced in America was only a sometime thing, instituted when soldiers were needed.  This would avoid the problem that yeager was pointing out.  The draft is one of those issues on which I am currently of no fixed opinion.

[lupinus]

They are also mandated to accept applications from every Israeli citizen who wants to volunteer if he's of course not mentally insane. This allows Arabs, Druze, and Beduins who are so willing to 'serve the country', and it also allows Jews who are physically crippled to join the military.

I see no problem with this and have actually always been in favor of the idea of creating certian jobs for those who are disabled to serve their country.  I know many young people (myself included) who would love to serve their country but for physical reasons can't.  With my knees and shoulder I'd get through basic training about as good as a sixty year old in poor shape.  

However, there is nothing that would prevent someone in my case (or those even more disabled such as those in a wheel chair) from doing such tasks as say punching keyboards in a command center, or for those of us that could move around but just can't go around kicking in doors from manning guard posts and what not.  Train them weapons and basic defense and everything, but don't train them the clearing rooms and door to door and what not things.

It would give thsoe who want to serve but for physical reasons can't their chance to serve their country.  And also would free up those in fine physical condition to do the job jobs that require it.

[MicroBalrog]

And I certainly have no problem with the military taking volunteers to whatever position.

The problem arises when they also take huge amounts of unwilling people - and then create immense amounts of positions to justify this, which is the reverse of what we should be having.

[roo_ster]

Most libertarians go apesh!t at the thought of a draft.

Personally, I don't have too big a problem with it in times of necessity such as the Civil War, WWI&II, etc.  Such drafts would be for the duration of the necessity.

I also am not too incensed over low-scale drafts for countries that need a large proportion of their population trained & organized in the military to survive any serious conflict.

I might even be persuaded to support a draft in the 'States, given the right restraints/conditions.

Where I do not support it is something like the old czarist 25 year service draft, which was a functional death sentence or the press-gang type drafting.

Given all the above, I would reserve to the military the right to refuse any draftee or volunteer as unsuitable.  The purpose of a draft is to provide manpower to protect the existence of the country, not provide make-work or provide unsuitable folks with a self-esteem boost by allowing them to contribute.

The dude pounding on the army keyboard & lifting paperwork has been, in extreme circumstances, the same guy who was rounded up & rallied to pull chestnuts outta the fire.  So, yes, even army paperpushers need to meet a certain physical standard.

[Perd Hapley]

I would reserve to the military the right to refuse any draftee or volunteer as unsuitable.  The purpose of a draft is to provide manpower to protect the existence of the country, not provide make-work or provide unsuitable folks with a self-esteem boost by allowing them to contribute.

The dude pounding on the army keyboard & lifting paperwork has been, in extreme circumstances, the same guy who was rounded up & rallied to pull chestnuts outta the fire.  So, yes, even army paperpushers need to meet a certain physical standard.

Pretty much.  Guard duty must definitely be the preserve of able-bodied men.  A disabled person could perform certain types of desk work stateside, but aren't there plenty of civilian jobs working with the military that a disabled person could do?  If the disabled soldier can't complete Basic Training, will he/she really be a soldier?

[Oleg Volk]

"Personally, I don't have too big a problem with it in times of necessity such as the Civil War, WWI&II, etc. "

WW1 was a neccesity for the US? With this sort of differences in the definitions of "necessity", I don't see draft being a good idea simply because people tend to disagree over what constitutes a good cause.

[lupinus]

WW1 is an iffy war IMO.

They did sink a civilian ship with Americans on it, and we aided our allies which to me is what allies do.  I don't think it was a war that absoloutly needed to be fought, but it is a war that was justified to me personally.

As to guard duty I don't mean a street in Bagdahd.  But the guy that checks you on your way into a military base?  In less likly to be attacked areas someone who in a pinch can manuever just fine but that just can't hold up to kicking in doors day after day?  It isn't hard to man a defensive position and pull a trigger when needed.  Hell theres no reason why they couldn't even be drivers.  Just saying there is no reason to keep people who are disabled to one degree or another from going through a different set of basic training that focuses on defensive fighting and positions, rather then the extreme physical conditioning and offensive training.

[Perd Hapley]

As to guard duty I don't mean a street in Bagdahd.  But the guy that checks you on your way into a military base?  In less likly to be attacked areas someone who in a pinch can manuever just fine but that just can't hold up to kicking in doors day after day?  It isn't hard to man a defensive position and pull a trigger when needed.  Hell theres no reason why they couldn't even be drivers.  Just saying there is no reason to keep people who are disabled to one degree or another from going through a different set of basic training that focuses on defensive fighting and positions, rather then the extreme physical conditioning and offensive training.

I would guess the majority of soldiers' jobs are like that, so you'd be talking about letting the handicapped serve in most positions.  On the other hand, there is no front in the wars of today.  A soldier needs to know that his "buddies" are able to kick tail and get him to safety should the need arise.  Keep in mind that your idea might sound good, but military realities are much different.  Usually, units have a deficiency of personell to begin with, so soldiers (at least in the Army) are often pressed into jobs they never expected to do.    

But don't fret.  Some people can serve their country much better as civilians than as military.  Teach some healthy young boys how to shoot, or just tell them about the Constitution and American liberty.  Or get a worthwhile govt. job and do it well.  As I said, if one lives near a military base, there are many important jobs that are filled by civilians.

[The Rabbi]

"Personally, I don't have too big a problem with it in times of necessity such as the Civil War, WWI&II, etc. "

WW1 was a neccesity for the US? With this sort of differences in the definitions of "necessity", I don't see draft being a good idea simply because people tend to disagree over what constitutes a good cause.

That is what a political process is all about.  People discuss it, eventually come to a vote and there is a consensus followed.  If some people still disagree, that is the price of living here.  At least they were able to get their side's message heard.

[lupinus]

In some ways you are right fist but I am not talking about severly handicapped people.  For most roles I am talking about people who if the SHTF can do what needs to be done in a defensive role esspecialy in deployment roles, but that for various reasons can't kick in doors all day everyday.

Take someone for instance that has a bum knee.  He can man a computer station, be fully trained in the use of small arms, how to take up a defensive position and counter attack, get a wounded buddy out, etc.  In other words most everything most of the military guys and gals who man computer stations and support roles can be expected to do.  He just wouldn't go through the parts of basic that he wont be expected to utalize and can't be expected to go on raids and what not because that level of use his bum knee wouldn't hold up agianst.  I am not talking about outright cripples for deployment.  I am talking mostly about people who have disabilities that don't render them usless, but limited.  And it would free up those who are in no way limited for the roles that they can do rather then sitting behind a computer or driving a truck all day.

[Perd Hapley]

I understand that, but you are asking the military to put the man behind the computer desk and leave him there.  It just doesn't happen.  The military needs more flexibility than that.  And Basic Training has value, not just because of the training, but for the fact that you know everyone around you has that basic level of training.  It builds comradery (sp?) and unity.  It also stretches you to do things you never thought you could do, physically and mentally.  How can a "gimp battalion" be pushed in that way, when any pushing is likely to aggravate chronic conditions?

As far as drivers go, would said disabled driver be able to climb all over and under and around that truck checking fluids and leaks and cables, etc?  That's one thing everybody in the military ends up doing sooner or later, and drivers most of all.

[Art Eatman]

I ws drafted in Janaury of 1954.  For whatever reason, it didn't bother me that it was "forced".  Hey, my father had volunteered for WW II, but I was too young for the combat years of Korea.  I've no idea what I would have done were I a few years older.

I still mostly see the Draft as a way to have an orderly flow of personnel into the services, based on national needs.

One thing I definitely like about the Draft:  It tends toward a Citizen's Army, with a fundamental allegiance to civilian authority.  We don't seem to be having problems with the present structure, but it would not be all that difficulty to create an allegiance to the military establishment, rather than the civilian.

Any way you hack it, though, one thing is for sure:  Going through the military at any time is a really good dose of Reality.  Probably be good to draft a bunch of today's spoiled brats.

Art

[lupinus]

depends on the driver and what their limitations are.  I just see no reason to not find a persons limitations who wants to serve and put them in a job where their limitations wont affect their ability to do the job.

[Perd Hapley]

That would work, if the military kept people in one job all the time.  Sometimes a person will stay in the same slot for a year, sometimes they'll be shifted around every day.  I don't know if the military can operate any other way, or even if they should.  

Keep in mind, the purpose of the military is to defend the nation, not to make sure every patriotic citizen can find a niche.  If they started finding jobs that the lightly disabled could fill, and leaving them there, it might be a web of chains that handicaps our military.  Or, done rightly, it could free up more fit individuals to do the "dirty work."  In any case, military effectiveness must take precedence.

[Oleg Volk]

Going through the military at any time is a really good dose of Reality.

-- And a good dose of forced obedience...if that's reality we want to uphold, I weep for the culture of this country.

[The Rabbi]

Going through the military at any time is a really good dose of Reality.

-- And a good dose of forced obedience...if that's reality we want to uphold, I weep for the culture of this country.

The culture of this country used to be self-respect and self-discipline.  Along with sacrifice.  Today it is ME ME ME.  The old culture fought wars at great cost and built the highest standard of living the world has ever known.  Today's culture expects those goods as something of a birthright to be given to them. It doesnt work that way.

[Guest]

And you think involuntary servitude will make it all better?