Author Topic: Starter frustration, need advice (Read 2395 times)

brimic · « **on:** December 27, 2013, 05:33:01 PM »

My old pontiac (98 GP 3800 series II) decided not to start a few days back.
I changed the battery out first as its getting a bit old and doesn't seem to hold a charge.
With new battery, starter still isn't turning over the engine.
The starter had been 'feeling' weak over the last year, so I just changed that out too.
New starter, new battery, I can hear the relay engage the starter, but it won't turn the engine at all.
Fearing the worst, I stuck a breaker bar on the the crank, but that turned it over with no problems by hand.

Does the APS colelctive have any ideas on what to try next?

Tallpine · « **Reply #1 on:** December 27, 2013, 05:40:48 PM »

The starter is or is not turning

Maybe you have a cable or ignition switch problem, if the latter.

RoadKingLarry · « **Reply #2 on:** December 27, 2013, 05:48:44 PM »

Check your cables and ground connections. A rotted out cable can do that sort of thing.

brimic · « **Reply #3 on:** December 27, 2013, 06:07:59 PM »

Starter isn't turning the engine at all.

Tallpine · « **Reply #4 on:** December 27, 2013, 06:13:25 PM »

Quote from: brimic on December 27, 2013, 06:07:59 PM

Starter isn't turning the engine at all.

But is the starter turning

Bad flywheel or "bendix" can cause the starter to spin fast without turning engine at all.

never_retreat · « **Reply #5 on:** December 27, 2013, 06:55:53 PM »

Check the ground wire between the engine/battery, battery/frame.
Had that happen on an grand prix years ago.
God I hated that car.

brimic · « **Reply #6 on:** December 27, 2013, 07:19:35 PM »

No, You can hear the starter gear engage the flywheel, but it won't turn the engine.
It makes a single loud 'click' when the key is turned- not the ratchety clicking sound caused by a low battery.

Quote from: never_retreat on December 27, 2013, 06:55:53 PM

Check the ground wire between the engine/battery, battery/frame.
Had that happen on an grand prix years ago.
God I hated that car.

I'm pretty sure its not the ground. I cleaned the terminal off good and its so tight that I don't think its getting any tighter (or loosening for that matter) without breaking the bolt.
The other day, we were able to jump start it using our truck, today, I tried jumping it again, which did not work- and I had the negative jumper grounded to an engine mount. So I'm pretty sure that the negative cable or grounding is ok, or at least isn't the likely culprit.

I actually hated this car and absolutely wished that everyone at GM would die of some sort an AIDS related cancer when the intake manifold melted at around 75,000 miles- which it turns out was happening to just about every GM V6 engine made for about 5-6 years after 1997- those that didn't hydrolock at 70mph when coolant dumped into the intake manifold could be repaired at a dealership for around $1200. Unfortunately my wish didn't come true when Bush/Obama et al bailed those effers out. Its been trouble free for more than 150,000 miles since that event.

tokugawa · « **Reply #7 on:** December 27, 2013, 07:30:19 PM »

IF- the battery is OK, the starter is OK, the starter clicks, and the engine rotates by hand--

you have a current problem-

Check- the cable connections, both ends, ground and positive, and under them at the contact points.

Check the cables inside the insulation (cut the insulation back an inch or two, very often a perfect looking cable will be green with corrosion under the insulation. )

Put an ohm meter on the cables one end to the other and check the resistance-should be near enough to 0 as to make no difference.

My guess is the positive cable is shot, if you tried to jump the car and connected the negative jumper lead to chassis ground.

brimic · « **Reply #8 on:** December 27, 2013, 07:33:51 PM »

Quote from: tokugawa on December 27, 2013, 07:30:19 PM

IF- the battery is OK, the starter is OK, the starter clicks, and the engine rotates by hand--

you have a current problem-

Check- the cable connections, both ends, ground and positive, and under them at the contact points.

Check the cables inside the insulation (cut the insulation back an inch or two, very often a perfect looking cable will be green with corrosion under the insulation. )

Put an ohm meter on the cables one end to the other and check the resistance-should be near enough to 0 as to make no difference.

My guess is the positive cable is shot, if you tried to jump the car and connected the negative jumper lead to chassis ground.

OK, I'll give that a shot- how much of a pita is it to change one of those?

RoadKingLarry · « **Reply #9 on:** December 27, 2013, 08:48:56 PM »

The battery cable isn't a big deal to change and they aren't terribly expensive.

Hawkmoon · « **Reply #10 on:** December 27, 2013, 11:43:18 PM »

Turn on headlights. Try to crank engine.

If headlights go dim but engine doesn't turn, you have a very weak battery. If headlights stay bright, you have a starter that's not getting current, or just needs to be replaced.

Firethorn · « **Reply #11 on:** December 28, 2013, 12:12:59 AM »

The 'click' is the relay engaging because the starter is a high amperage device and you don't want to route all that power to your steering column.

The repeated clicks on a weak battery is because the voltage drops enough that the relay won't even stay engaged(it's an electromagnet), but the moment it disconnects the load on the battery from the starter drops, giving the relay enough power to start again.

I'm going to echo with 'check the positive starter cable!'. Sounds like the relay is good, ground is good, positive cable bad.

Jim147 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 28, 2013, 12:21:50 AM »

Did you replace the solenoid with the stater?

jim

French G. · « **Reply #13 on:** December 28, 2013, 03:40:03 AM »

I'll go with the crowd that it is most likely the battery cables and/or terminal connections. I have a new favorite fix for a lot of shenanigans in the electrical system and that is a 2nd ground from the battery straight to a lug of the alternator. In your case I suspect the pos. cable. I played a similar game once, changed the starter on my GMC Dually right where it left me parked, in a busy parking lot, in the rain, with the front wheel in the apparent low spot of the entire earth since the rain was using my ear for a gutter. turns out Hey!, it was the cable.

Once upon a time I owned a 92-93ish Grand Am and came to discover that Pontiac is merely Lucas of the Great Lakes. So here's the long shot solution if nothing else works. My torque convertor clutch solenoid took a crap once. It's hard to get an automatic home when it is locked in direct drive. Hard to start too.

brimic · « **Reply #14 on:** December 28, 2013, 09:42:48 AM »

Is the + cable.
My neighbor came over after work last night and helped diagnose it:
Old starter was deader than a doornail
Connected the positive end of the starter to the battery with a jumper cable and she spun.
Picked up a new cable last night, just have to put it all back together this morning.

brimic · « **Reply #15 on:** December 28, 2013, 05:35:41 PM »

The cable I bought was a generic replacement, but the pigtail on it was too small guage wire to splice in.
I spent the morning looking at different parts store, noone had one, stealerships wanted $140 for one and could get it in within a week.
I ordered the correct wire off amazon.
I went out and started to remove the old wire and lo and behold, I found it not attached to the starter. It must have slipped off the screw while I was fumbling around for the nut.
My Dad always told me not to work on cars in the dark, I guess that advice has some merit.
Its up and running now.

Hawkmoon · « **Reply #16 on:** December 28, 2013, 06:24:26 PM »

I'm confused. Did you need BOTH a new starter and a new positive cable? Did you replace both?

brimic · « **Reply #17 on:** December 28, 2013, 08:36:52 PM »

Nope cable was fine, just not connected.

tokugawa · « **Reply #18 on:** December 29, 2013, 06:01:56 PM »

Ah- you forgot to reconnect the starter cable after changing out the starter?

Quote from: brimic on December 27, 2013, 05:33:01 PM

My old pontiac (98 GP 3800 series II) decided not to start a few days back.
I changed the battery out first as its getting a bit old and doesn't seem to hold a charge.
With new battery, starter still isn't turning over the engine.
The starter had been 'feeling' weak over the last year, so I just changed that out too.
New starter, new battery, I can hear the relay engage the starter, but it won't turn the engine at all.
Fearing the worst, I stuck a breaker bar on the the crank, but that turned it over with no problems by hand.

Does the APS colelctive have any ideas on what to try next?