National reciprocity

[Scout26]

and..........Discuss !!!   

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2014/01/21/bill-introduced-to-allow-conealed-carry-permits-to-transfer-state-lines-like-drivers-licenses-n1782417

[AZRedhawk44]

Anything more verbose than:

"Article IV, Section 1 of the Constitution shall require all States, Territories and lands under control of the United States of America to honor all concealed weapons permits or licenses to carry concealed weapons, issued by any member State, Territory or land under control of the United States of America."

...needs to be voted down.

FedGuv needs to stay out of this.  It's best for our own long-term health.  And theirs.

[Tallpine]

Anything more verbose than:

"Article IV, Section 1 of the Constitution shall require all States, Territories and lands under control of the United States of America to honor all concealed weapons permits or licenses to carry concealed weapons, issued by any member State, Territory or land under control of the United States of America."

...needs to be voted down.

FedGuv needs to stay out of this.  It's best for our own long-term health.  And theirs.

How about something like: "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"   

[AZRedhawk44]

How about something like: "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"   

Heck, let's just go to:  FedGuv shall not erect a multitude of New Offices, nor send out swarms of Officers to harrass the people, and eat out their substance.

[Perd Hapley]

Heck, let's just go to:  FedGuv shall not erect a multitude of New Offices, nor send out swarms of Officers to harrass the people, and eat out their substance.

Should have put that in place about 150 years ago. 

[Fitz]

Anything more verbose than:

"Article IV, Section 1 of the Constitution shall require all States, Territories and lands under control of the United States of America to honor all concealed weapons permits or licenses to carry concealed weapons, issued by any member State, Territory or land under control of the United States of America."

...needs to be voted down.

FedGuv needs to stay out of this.  It's best for our own long-term health.  And theirs.

I tend to agree, but the gov never is into brevity. As long as their verbose ridiculousness doesn't SAY any more than that in whole, I'm still gonna be fine with it.

[charby]

Now, would state rights people be against national reciprocity?

[Fitz]

Now, would state rights people be against national reciprocity?

I look at it this way: national reciprocity would be strengthening what is already SUPPOSED to be provided to us via the constitution.

[RoadKingLarry]

I'm kind of torn on the whole states rights thing.
I'm strongly in favor of the sovereign state concept but we pretty much lost that back about 1865.
So now we fall back to the full faith and credit clause. Which is pretty well ignored by states that don't want to follow it.

My worry would be that in order to get reciprocity across the 50 states we would end up with NYC/California/Chicago style regulations(infringments) of our 2nd Amendment rights.

[Balog]

Article IV, Section 1:
Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state. And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof.

[AZRedhawk44]

I'd like A4 S1 to apply not only to driver's licenses and CCW, but marriage licenses and power of attorney as well.  Trying to think of any other "government permission slip" behaviors that some States like and some States hate to add to that list.

[Gowen]

Now, would state rights people be against national reciprocity?

Allowing the federal government to have it's hands in anything is dangerous.  How would you like to pay $1000 for a national permit?  Have to have a psych exam before you can have a permit?  Give a DNA sample?  If we allow the federal government to get it's filthy hands involved, they will set the standards and they will determine who gets a permit and who doesn't.

NO way.  

[Fitz]

Allowing the federal government to have it's hands in anything is dangerous.  How would you like to pay $1000 for a national permit?  Have to have a psych exam before you can have a permit?  Give a DNA sample?  If we allow the federal government to get it's filthy hands involved, they will set the standards and they will determine who gets a permit and who doesn't.

NO way.  

Has the same happened with drivers licenses? Not being a smart ass, I honestly don't know

[Perd Hapley]

Now, would state rights people be against national reciprocity?

So far, I am. The pendulum has swung much too far in the direction of allowing D.C. to decide what rights we do and do not have. On gun rights, their record has been execrable.

On second thought, how many examples can we think of, in the past 100 years, in which Washington has NOT been worse than every state in the nation, in terms of individual liberty? On racial issues, sure. Probably Gideon v Wainwright. But what else?

[Gowen]

Has the same happened with drivers licenses? Not being a smart ass, I honestly don't know

Maybe not, but licensing of drivers has gone back 100 years and it's honored under full faith and credit.  Look at national 55 mph speed limit laws dictated by federal government back in the 70's and 80's.  Guns are evil as believed by this Admin, do you really want to give them the chance to mess with all the state's CCW laws?

[Boomhauer]

My worry would be that in order to get reciprocity across the 50 states we would end up with NYC/California/Chicago style regulations(infringments) of our 2nd Amendment rights.

This. You do not want the federal government trying to regulate reciprocity.

As it stands now with my state's permit and a non-resident permit from say, Utah, I have pretty good coverage of the US as far as CCW goes.

I do not want the federal .gov dictating any crazy *expletive deleted*it they want.

Has the same happened with drivers licenses? Not being a smart ass, I honestly don't know

DL's aren't a target like CCW is. Everybody wants a DL so nobody's going to start restricting them at the national level.

While I appreciate that the legislation is trying to make it easier for us to CCW across state lines I feel that there is too much danger with the federal .gov sticking it's nose into our business. This is something that we don't need nor want the federal government to mess with.

[RoadKingLarry]

Has the same happened with drivers licenses? Not being a smart ass, I honestly don't know

The "funny" part about that is that far more people are killed and maimed annually by idiots with a perfectly valid DL than all the criminal misuse of guns. But, guns are evil. Driving is a right dontcha know.

[AZRedhawk44]

Has the same happened with drivers licenses? Not being a smart ass, I honestly don't know

A case could be made with regard to interstates, speed limit and DUI guidelines.  Lots of top-down "encouragement" and tampering.

Then there's Real ID.  If Driver's Licenses didn't exist in the first place, FedGuv would have no tent to put their camel's nose under for nationalized ID systems.

They *expletive deleted*ck up E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G.

[RevDisk]

Now, would state rights people be against national reciprocity?

Probably yes.

If nothing else, because it'd bring gay marriage reciprocity to the forefront. Some states legalized it, some don't. A4S1 doesn't necessarily cover CCW, because it's a permission slip for a certain activity. I'm not sure so sure CCW would be covered by "public acts, records, and judicial proceedings" unless a state had the audacity of handing out CCW permits allegedly valid for the entire United States (ie redo the structure of CCW licensing to be like marriage licensing). Every state CCW/LTCF law I'm aware of tends to be very strict in saying it is only valid for its own state, unless another state decides independently to accept it.

IMHO, it'd be nice if there was a standard CCW framework. Maybe set it up in Tiers that states can agree to. Tier 1 requires nothing, Tier 2 requires a background check and reasonable costs, Tier 3 requires training, high cost, fingerprints, etc. This would be independent of any license the State wanted to hand out. Never happen, but it's logical. We almost have it with Utah and/or Florida permits. Having widely varying CCW laws kinda does suck.

[Tallpine]

And then there's this:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/01/24/newspaper-chain-seeks-to-build-state-by-state-concealed-weapon-databases/

 

[Gowen]

And then there's this:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/01/24/newspaper-chain-seeks-to-build-state-by-state-concealed-weapon-databases/

 

We just need to go on the offensive.  Start posting the names, addresses and phone numbers of the office staff of that newspaper all over the internet.  It's been done before and with good results.

[p12]

We just need to go on the offensive.  Start posting the names, addresses and phone numbers of the office staff of that newspaper all over the internet.  It's been done before and with good results.

I'm in!!

[p12]

If true, smart man.

Civitas Media never had any plans or intentions of publishing in print or online lists of holders of “conceal and carry” permits.  Nor will Civitas Media develop databases of permit holders.  A poorly crafted internal memo meant to highlight editorial discussions and planning incorrectly indicated that such a database was being planned; it has been considered and rejected.
 
Michael C. Bush, CEO

http://civitasmedia.com/article/20140124/HOME02/140129999

[Hawkmoon]

I'd like A4 S1 to apply not only to driver's licenses and CCW, but marriage licenses and power of attorney as well.  Trying to think of any other "government permission slip" behaviors that some States like and some States hate to add to that list.

Dunno about Arizona, but where I live a marriage license is issued by the municipality, and it's valid only in that municipality. Taking it across a state line isn't even on the radar -- we can't use it across the town line.

[Hawkmoon]

IMHO, it'd be nice if there was a standard CCW framework. Maybe set it up in Tiers that states can agree to. Tier 1 requires nothing, Tier 2 requires a background check and reasonable costs, Tier 3 requires training, high cost, fingerprints, etc. This would be independent of any license the State wanted to hand out. Never happen, but it's logical. We almost have it with Utah and/or Florida permits. Having widely varying CCW laws kinda does suck.

Where does the Second Amendment say anything about licenses, background checks, and "tiers"? Tiers just promotes elitism. We already have some people on supposedly pro-gun forums advocating that "adequate" training should be a prerequisite to a carry permit. Push them a little, and it turns out without fail that their notion of "adequate" training is whatever level of training they have undergone.

Interim -- national reciprocity, with each state fully authorized to decide how much or how little they want for prerequisites to issuing the permit.

Long term -- No license or permit required. We can keep the laws prohibiting possession by convicted felons. Doesn't matter -- we know they mostly have guns within 48 hours of release from prison, so the laws requiring permits don't prevent their getting guns, and the laws prohibiting them from possessing guns don't prevent it, either. All the permit laws do is penalize law-abiding citizens.