I'm sooooo glad we gave tax money to Solyndra, et al.

[Scout26]

when a German inventor comes up with this on his own.  And he's crowd sourcing the start-up money.  Just the way G-d and Adam Smith intended.

http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/advisor/giant-glass-orb-could-replace-solar-panel-135221605.html

[RevDisk]

I'll believe its efficiency when I see it, but the theory is pretty basic. Using optics to concentrate light. Just need a small PV cell is capable of handling the amount of light.

[Brad Johnson]

Trackable PV arrays and simple Fresnel lenses would do the same thing without looking like a giant steampunk sculpture.

Brad

[AJ Dual]

Trackable PV arrays and simple Fresnel lenses would do the same thing without looking like a giant steampunk sculpture.

Brad

Eh, big flimsy lens arrays... They're subseptible to wind damage, hail damage etc. just like the PV arrays themselves are. A single big massive sphere of glass would be a rather tough object, hail wouldn't bother it at all, and it would probably take a windstorm capable of wrecking the building to topple it.

Although I think the biggest issue would be casting and polishing said glass sphere economically. Kind of doubt that'll happen. 

If the tracking Fresnel lens solutions, fiber optic light pipes... any of them, made solar economical, even in equatorial latitudes, it would being done already.

The media and politicans in general are REALLY BAD at figuring out TECO's, and net energy return rates. Or, they willfully lie.

His idea of using a smaller hand-held model comprised of a lucite sphere small high efficiency PV chip in a thing the size of your average coffee grinder for tablets and phones might prove better than flat folding mats of PV arrays though.

[Tallpine]

Trackable PV arrays and simple Fresnel lenses would do the same thing without looking like a giant steampunk sculpture.

Brad

I rather like the globes featured by some steampunk costumes.   

[Brad Johnson]

I rather like the globes featured by some steampunk costumes.   

It's not the globes, it's the globes' locations.

Brad

[Scout26]

It's not the globes, it's the globes' locations.

Brad

Actually, it's not.  It's designed to provide more electricity than would otherwise be possible: 

...that can deliver a greater amount of sunlight — around 70 percent more — than traditional photovoltaic panels can collect on their own, even when they track the sun. The system enables Broessel to reduce the size of the solar panel to around one percent of the typical PV device

.

I'm not sure if that will translate into 70% more electricity being produced, merely 1% or somewhere in between.   It still seems as if the limiting factor is chemistry and physics.  Although the physics seems to be improving.

[Azrael256]

Actually, it's not.  It's designed to provide more electricity than would otherwise be possible: 

Reading comprehension fail!

[Tallpine]

It's not the globes, it's the globes' locations.

Brad

Anterior vs posterior 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

HCPV.  It's nothing new.  It's what I've been working in for the past few years.

The problem with the giant glass sphere design is that it requires a giant glass sphere.  That much glass is not cost effective - too much material.  With any massed produced product the unit cost of manufacturing approaches zero at high volume, but material costs never go away.

If the tracking Fresnel lens solutions, fiber optic light pipes... any of them, made solar economical, even in equatorial latitudes, it would being done already.

It is being done already.   

[Firethorn]

looking like a giant steampunk sculpture.

That's a feature, not a detriment!

The problem with the giant glass sphere design is that it requires a giant glass sphere.  That much glass is not cost effective - too much material.  With any massed produced product the unit cost of manufacturing approaches zero at high volume, but material costs never go away.

But so isn't this. 

A solar panel that can replace a roof as opposed to simply being put on top of it would help a lot.  IE placing panels INSTEAD of shingles, metal, etc...

[grampster]

A solar panel that can replace a roof as opposed to simply being put on top of it would help a lot.  IE placing panels INSTEAD of shingles, metal, etc...

Kind of hard to collect solar rays through the 3 feet of snow on my roof.

[Firethorn]

Solar panels as roofing material would be an advanced use - I'm not stupid enough to suggest that it'd be a minor upgrade.  You'd do it mostly for new homes first, and retrofit relatively gradually when major roof repairs(essentially replacement) are needed.  As part of that you have a number of options to deal with snow:
1.  Just not generate solar energy in the winter(Alaska)
2.  More roof pitch - solar panels tend towards being slicker, so the snow would slide off.
3.  Assisted melting.  Note the sliding thing.  Heat the panels a little bit to get rid of the snow.  Use a microcomputer and some sensors in order to be able to tell when melting said snow would be worth it(IE you'll more than recover the energy you spend clearing the panels). 

If you're in a snowy region there's a good chance that you have a solar thermal system(heating vs electricity).  With some creative piping you can use heat stored before the storm to clear the snow off the thermal panels, which then provide even more heat to clear the electric panels.

Also, remember the context - saving materials.  If solar panel prices drop as much as some estimates show they'll actually be cheaper than traditional roofs.  At which point, why not hook up the electrical?

[Brad Johnson]

Solar panels as roofing material would be an advanced use - I'm not stupid enough to suggest that it'd be a minor upgrade.  You'd do it mostly for new homes first, and retrofit relatively gradually when major roof repairs(essentially replacement) are needed.  As part of that you have a number of options to deal with snow:

Some of the new thin-film technologies coming on line may allow us to do just that.

Brad

[AJ Dual]

Solar panels as shingles/roofing tiles has been done for a while now.  I remember seeing them in magazines in the late 80's early 90's. No idea about cost efficacy.

Back to the original idea, I wonder if a plastic globe filled with water would work...

[Tallpine]

Solar panels as shingles/roofing tiles has been done for a while now.  I remember seeing them in magazines in the late 80's early 90's. No idea about cost efficacy.

Back to the original idea, I wonder if a plastic globe filled with water would work...

A snow globe 

 

[Scout26]

Solar panels as roofing material would be an advanced use - I'm not stupid enough to suggest that it'd be a minor upgrade.  You'd do it mostly for new homes first, and retrofit relatively gradually when major roof repairs(essentially replacement) are needed.  As part of that you have a number of options to deal with snow:
1.  Just not generate solar energy in the winter(Alaska)
2.  More roof pitch - solar panels tend towards being slicker, so the snow would slide off.
3.  Assisted melting.  Note the sliding thing.  Heat the panels a little bit to get rid of the snow.  Use a microcomputer and some sensors in order to be able to tell when melting said snow would be worth it(IE you'll more than recover the energy you spend clearing the panels). 

If you're in a snowy region there's a good chance that you have a solar thermal system(heating vs electricity).  With some creative piping you can use heat stored before the storm to clear the snow off the thermal panels, which then provide even more heat to clear the electric panels.

Also, remember the context - saving materials.  If solar panel prices drop as much as some estimates show they'll actually be cheaper than traditional roofs.  At which point, why not hook up the electrical?

I had the roof here replaced 4 years ago.  At that time I want to say I paid about $6.50 per sq foot for a remove and install or about $650/Sq.  There were some extras in there like three new skylights, and of course all the flashing around the fireplace, pipes, vents, and skylights.  Can you install solar (with necessary wiring, batteries and ancillary electronics) for the same $12k I paid for ~1500sq ft of roof?   

[Firethorn]

I had the roof here replaced 4 years ago.  At that time I want to say I paid about $6.50 per sq foot for a remove and install or about $650/Sq.  There were some extras in there like three new skylights, and of course all the flashing around the fireplace, pipes, vents, and skylights.  Can you install solar (with necessary wiring, batteries and ancillary electronics) for the same $12k I paid for ~1500sq ft of roof?   

You don't ask for much, do you?  If you can install a roof with solar panels for the same price as a traditional roof - including said electronics, only an extreme idiot wouldn't.  However, it would make sense long before that point unless you get your electricity for free.

The context of my post was along the lines of 'it would be very nice if you could use solar panels instead of roofing material'.  That way you don't have to buy said underlayer, saving you money and making break-even on the system quicker.  I even mentioned that it'd make sense for new home builds(where you have much more control over all the variables) long before you'd be retrofitting.

While they've done 'solar shingles' before, to my knowledge they're not economical compared to contemporary solar panels, and they aren't ideally constructed for either application. 

Still, let's do some figuring.  You've provided the cost for your roof.  A google search for solar panels led me to this.  180W, 31.8 × 62.2 × 1.6 inch, on sale for $160.  Our 'assumption' is that our theoretical 'lay right on the roof supports' solar panels are the same cost per watt and square foot, same efficiency, etc...

Square feet per panel: 13.7
Per Square foot:
Cost: $11.65
Power: 13.1w

House: 1500 sqft roof.  Material cost would be $17.5k, about 50% higher than your whole job(ouch).  Power rating would be 19kW.  Figure on a 30% capacity factor, I'm coming up with 50k kwh per year, or about $5k in electricity.  Remember that most people don't need to cover their entire roof in order to match their electricity usage.  Additional costs would include the inverter at roughly $6k.  I'm assuming a grid-tie system, so no batteries needed.

What about total costs?  Well, this 18kW kit seems to indicate that the 'whole system' would run roughly $32k.

Round up to $40k to account for labor and misc, and you're looking at a 8 year payoff in electricity.  Subtract the $12k you would have spent anyways, and you're looking at payoff in 6.

[RoadKingLarry]

Some of your costs are regional. I had a new roof put on my house in 2011. My cost was right at $6500 for an 1800 sq ft house. That included full tear off of 2 layers of old shingles,  new 30 year architectural shingles w/felt and cleanup and removal of debris. Current cost of solar panels even only covering the south facing side would far eclipse that. It's neat tech but it isn't there yet. And, if you're going to generate your own electricity a small battery bank wouldn't be that much extra expense. Also, if I was going to go to that much trouble going off the grid wouldn't be that much more expense.

[Firethorn]

Some of your costs are regional. I had a new roof put on my house in 2011. My cost was right at $6500 for an 1800 sq ft house. That included full tear off of 2 layers of old shingles,  new 30 year architectural shingles w/felt and cleanup and removal of debris.

I used his figures;I know they vary, which is why I didn't bother getting very picky on install costs, and used a range.  My SOLE point is that if you can have solar panels that act as roofing material, that's saving you $6.5-12k of labor and materials over doing it the current way.  Not that solar would be cheaper, but solar provides you electricity, which you can then do what you will with.

[Scout26]

Round up to $40k to account for labor and misc, and you're looking at a 8 year payoff in electricity.  Subtract the $12k you would have spent anyways, and you're looking at payoff in 6.

I would guess that labor would be more than $8k as generally the costs are 50% materials, 50% labor/misc.  But we'll go with $40k as the total cost.

My current electric bill runs under $50/month  (Average is $40-$45, but $50 makes the math easier.)  So $40k-$12k I spent on a roof and the net difference is $28k.  Divide that by $50/month and the result is 560 months or 46 years, 8 months (at current rates).   I'll be long dead to even see the BE point, much less recoup the investment.  Plus I'm guessing that the system will need upgrading, repairs and maintenance long before that point.

That's just not economically feasible.  Which is why you don't see a lot of it being done.   Unless they could show that I would be generating X amount over my usage that I could/would be selling to ComEd each month, then that might bring that ROI into a more feasible range.   

[Firethorn]

I would guess that labor would be more than $8k as generally the costs are 50% materials, 50% labor/misc.  But we'll go with $40k as the total cost.

Probably a bit out of whack given the relatively extreme expense of the panels. 

My current electric bill runs under $50/month  (Average is $40-$45, but $50 makes the math easier.)  So $40k-$12k I spent on a roof and the net difference is $28k.  Divide that by $50/month and the result is 560 months or 46 years, 8 months (at current rates).   I'll be long dead to even see the BE point, much less recoup the investment.  Plus I'm guessing that the system will need upgrading, repairs and maintenance long before that point.

You must of missed the part where I mentioned that the amount of electricity having the 'whole roof' be PV at modern efficiency levels would be massive overkill.  At 1500 square feet and a 30% capacity factor this system would generate 50MWh/year. 

In your case I'd probably recommend switching to electric appliances vs gas and such.  Or just have a relatively small fraction of the roof actually be solar, instead of all of it.

That's just not economically feasible.  Which is why you don't see a lot of it being done.   Unless they could show that I would be generating X amount over my usage that I could/would be selling to ComEd each month, then that might bring that ROI into a more feasible range.

In this case you'd be a net producer, so you would indeed be selling juice to ComEd.  Without knowing their pricing structure, can't calculate a break-even point from just what you've posted.  I assumed $.10 a kwh.  In which case you'd be using an average of 6MWh/year yourself, and selling 44MWh. 

[Tallpine]

Some of your costs are regional. I had a new roof put on my house in 2011. My cost was right at $6500 for an 1800 sq ft house. That included full tear off of 2 layers of old shingles,  new 30 year architectural shingles w/felt and cleanup and removal of debris. Current cost of solar panels even only covering the south facing side would far eclipse that. It's neat tech but it isn't there yet. And, if you're going to generate your own electricity a small battery bank wouldn't be that much extra expense. Also, if I was going to go to that much trouble going off the grid wouldn't be that much more expense.

Yeah it was just over $11K for an 1800 sq ft 2-story house, plus the garage.  The house roof is very steep so I think he charged extra for the labor on that.  Also several porches on both structures.

Solar panels here wouldn't do much good for about 4 months of the year when we get virtually no sun on the house.  Of course in the summer there is 18 hours of daylight and the N-S roof peak would catch morning and evening sunshine.

[HankB]

Gizmo isn't very impressive - a ball of even "cheap" optical glass like BK7 or B270 as large as his invention appears to be would be rather heavy and quite expensive. Plastic would have its own problems, so casting PMMA or some other polymer doesn't look like a very attractive alternative.

And the concentration ratio would be less than what you'd get with something like a CPC (Compound Parabolic Concentrator) array.

[Scout26]

In this case you'd be a net producer, so you would indeed be selling juice to ComEd.  Without knowing their pricing structure, can't calculate a break-even point from just what you've posted.  I assumed $.10 a kwh.  In which case you'd be using an average of 6MWh/year yourself, and selling 44MWh.  

Okay, so I broke out the electric bills and crunched the number.   I use 7,112 kwh last year.  I pay .05990 per kwh (Not including all the additional charges and taxes).  So amusing I'd generate 50Mwh, I'd have just short of 43 Mwh to sell to Comed.  Assuming that I'd get the same price to sell as I'm paying to buy, then I'd make $210 per month, a net swing of $260 per month.

Divide that $28k (net difference between regular roof and solar roof) and that becomes 108 months or 9 years.

That still a long ROI, but somewhat more economically feasible before you add in repairs, maintenance and upgrades.  If there was someway to produce more electricity to sell, then it becomes even more feasible.

And no, I will not convert my stove nor furnace to electric.  Cooking on electric is what heathens do and is an affront to G-d and all his creations.


Especially the tasty ones.