Considering committing heresy

[mtnbkr]

I'll just place this here for your perusal:

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=6631

Chris

[Fitz]

I love 1911s. I also love my XDs.

Have both. Be happy

[MechAg94]

I'll just place this here for your perusal:

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=6631

Chris

That has sort of been my experience with 1911's.  They good, solid guns that are fun to shoot, but all that I have used have fallen short of 100% reliability.  Maybe some of that could be fixed with better maintenance or mags, I don't know.  My experience with XD's and Glocks is that they are actually near bullet proof on reliability with very little maintenance. 

[Tallpine]

That has sort of been my experience with 1911's.  They good, solid guns that are fun to shoot, but all that I have used have fallen short of 100% reliability.  Maybe some of that could be fixed with better maintenance or mags, I don't know.  My experience with XD's and Glocks is that they are actually near bullet proof on reliability with very little maintenance. 

Yeah, after 75 years the military gave up on them 

[SADShooter]

Yeah, after 75 years the military gave up on them 

My cult robes are just as worn at the knees & elbows as anyone else's, but you know perfectly well that the specs and tolerances on the Colt GI guns firing ball are a far cry from the myriad variations, from bullseye pistols to race guns, shooting the vast array of ammo out there.

[Tallpine]

My cult robes are just as worn at the knees & elbows as anyone else's, but you know perfectly well that the specs and tolerances on the Colt GI guns firing ball are a far cry from the myriad variations, from bullseye pistols to race guns, shooting the vast array of ammo out there.

I think I see the problem ....   

[AmbulanceDriver]

I will say that it took quite a bit to find a mag/ammo combination that I considered reliable enough for EDC in my 1911.  Wilson Combat mags and the Speer Gold Dots work reliably in that gun.   On the other hand, ball ammo worked reliably straight out of the box with whatever mag I shoved them in.  Since the 1911 wasn't designed with hollow point rounds in mind, it didn't bother me that it took some tweaking around to find what would work.   And yes, I think that compared to some other platforms, 1911's are more maintenance intensive.  

But dang if they ain't fun to shoot.

[lee n. field]

I'll just place this here for your perusal:

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=6631

Chris

Behold, the paradigm shifty thing, where you finally stop trying to reconcile what you see with your eyes with what your mental model says should be the case.  It's almost like changing your religion.

 While some have taken issue that it was a small sample (sure, only over 30 guns with all the same problems….not a trend at all), their problems were fully representative of common 1911 ailments – magazine issues, feedway issues, slide stop problems, extractor problems, loose plunger tubes, and intensive maintenance/inspection.

The tally after initial test firing at our 1911 class in Arizona, August 2013.

Tim and I taught a few 1911 specific classes in the last couple years, and we typically saw a failure rate of over 50% of the student pistols in each class.  

The one class I took, ten years ago now, students came with a variety of guns.  The ones with the most problems were the high dollar 1911s.  Glocks, my Ruger, whatever else except 1911s, all seemed to chug right along.

Do I want one?  Sure.  But, if and when, it will be a rock bottom basic one.  A GI with a better sights.

[MechAg94]

I do admit I have a compact RIA 1911 that I don't recall ever giving me issues.  Good point about the cheaper ones. 

I remember a guy in one of my CHL renewal classes.  We were sitting there waiting to start shooting and he showed me his 1911 which he said was rigged up for accuracy/competition.  He was sort of bragging on it.  During the 50 rounds of the test, his pistol probably failed several times.  I was shooting my Para 14.45.  I shot accurately, but it failed to extract on me a couple times.  First time it ever failed with good magazines was during that testing.  Found later the extractor was worn down to nothing.  I bought it used so I guess it was very well used.

[roo_ster]

This first rather serendipitous step made me realize that I did not need the 1911 trigger or ergonomics as a performance crutch.

Put another way, "I put in enough time on a platform with inferior ergonomic design to do as well as I used to do with a 1911."

[Balog]

"The 1911 is an inferior design because when you change the design it doesn't work well." Ok then.

[Scout26]

The one I had in the Army was exceptionally accurate, even though it felt like if you shook it hard enough it would self disassemble.   I don't ever recall any failure with it, or any the schoolhouse* guns we were issued.  I got out and bought my Colt 1991-A1.  The only problems it ever had were with magazines (especially some old GI issue ones that magically followed me home somehow.)   I've never done a trigger job or any other futzing with it, other then putting thinner rubber grips and fingergroove thingy on it.  (H/t to Monkeyleg).    It just works.  Even with the 185gr HP's that I mostly shoot.

Like AD, the Wilson combat mags (Thanks again to Monkeyleg) have been flawless performers.  

The only reason the US Army went away from it, was to standardize to NATO's 9mm requirement.  We had fought for the .45ACP since day one, but  finally conceded 45 years later.  (IIRC, USASOC has gone back to the 1911/.45 ACP as the handgun of choice for the Special Operations community.)


*-Schoolhouse guns-  The ones at training bases that get used by hundreds of folks.  They are generally cleaned to death, if not shot very much.

[Tallpine]

The only reason the US Army went away from it, was to standardize to NATO's 9mm requirement.  We had fought for the .45ACP since day one, but  finally conceded 45 years later.  (IIRC, USASOC has gone back to the 1911/.45 ACP as the handgun of choice for the Special Operations community.)

Well, it's not like the US needs to fight any crazy Asians any more 

[BlueStarLizzard]

My Springfeild will feed anything you shove in it, including many flavors of hollowpoints.

My Dad had a 1911 (not A1) that, with some tweaking, would hand cycle through a magazine of caseings.

I will say the only real fault we've had with our 1911 has been banged up magazines. And keeping the feed lips from getting bent up isn't exactly a real challenge.

When the question is "quick, here's a NIB 1911A1 and a NIB Glock, pick one and shoot!" I'll grab the Glock. (unless it's gen 4 )
But if it's "Quick, here's your Glock 17 and here's your 1911, pick one and shoot!" You bet I'll be grabbing my 1911.

The fact that a 1911 may require more induvidial attention from out of the box too daily carry does not negate it's overall practicality for SD.

[Perd Hapley]

From another article on MSR:

My friend Bob Moran said it best: “So it’s heavier, requires more maintenance, holds only eight rounds and costs four times as much? I’ll take two.”

Yup.

[Matthew Carberry]

I've got the VZ grips on mine. Grey, sweet looking and grippy. A bit thinner than stock but just a hair wider than slimline which fits my shortish fingers well.

And the grey coordinates equally well with my brown leather and black leather, which is important!

[RoadKingLarry]

Selling your 1911 would be more like sacrilege or apostasy. 

Selling a 1911 to buy Croation tupperware would be an abomination.

[Gewehr98]

I would love somebody in that "article" comments thread to bring up the viability of a (low capacity) revolver for defensive use.

 

[Perd Hapley]

My Springfeild will feed anything you shove in it, including many flavors of hollowpoints.

My Dad had a 1911 (not A1) that, with some tweaking, would hand cycle through a magazine of caseings.

I will say the only real fault we've had with our 1911 has been banged up magazines. And keeping the feed lips from getting bent up isn't exactly a real challenge.

When the question is "quick, here's a NIB 1911A1 and a NIB Glock, pick one and shoot!" I'll grab the Glock. (unless it's gen 4 )
But if it's "Quick, here's your Glock 17 and here's your 1911, pick one and shoot!" You bet I'll be grabbing my 1911.

The fact that a 1911 may require more induvidial attention from out of the box too daily carry does not negate it's overall practicality for SD.

This. The article mtnbkr linked to makes clear they are discussing organizational duty weapons, not guns for individual self-defense.

[Fitz]

This discussion is pointless. I've already given him the answer.

When asking the question "X gun or Y gun? Which?"

The answer is always "Get both"

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

My experience is that a properly made 1911 is as reliable as a gun can be.  Not 100%, but so close that it doesn't matter.  About like any other serious service pistol.

I've never understood the reputation of Glocks as being unfailingly reliable.  I see them fail as often as anything else.  Probably just coincidence, but I've seen several Glocks lose that little takedown slider lever above the trigger guard.  When that goes, the gun barfs the slide/barrel/spring off the front of the frame.  It's kinda funny when it happens in a match, the guy ends up staring at half a gun in his hands and slowly realizes the rest of it is down by his feet.

Most failures I see, especially in matches, are due to bad handloads.  Can't blame the gun for that.

All in all, I don't much worry about the reliability of different gun designs.  My unprofessional opinion is that every common service pistol is reliable if built faithfully to their plans.  When they fail it's because of a manufacturing defect or a failed/worn part, not an inherent design flaw.  So use whatever design works best for you.

I think the problem with 1911s these days is that manufacturing them to their plans is very difficult and expensive.  The 1911 was designed for a manufacturing process with lots skilled hand craftsmanship.  Hand labor just can't compete on price in today's economy.

[Perd Hapley]

I think the problem with 1911s these days is that manufacturing them to their plans is very difficult and expensive.  The 1911 was designed for a manufacturing process with lots skilled hand craftsmanship.  Hand labor just can't compete on price in today's economy.

Well, maybe, but it's also the Windows/Apple issue. Most other guns are Apples.

[p12]

I have had a Colt and Para 1911 that failed frequently.

Currently have a SA in 9mm. The only time it has failed was due to poor lube and Wolf steel cased ammo.

[RoadKingLarry]

I've got 3 1911s, a Kimber and 2 RIAs. The only failures I've had have been due to the odd out of spec reload and one bad magazine.

I've probably said it here before but my opinion is that 1911s get the same bad rap the Harley Davidsons get. The tend to attract folks that like to tinker with stuff and want to "customize" their ride or their gun to make it "better". What happens far too often is that people that have absolutely no business even being in the same room with anything remotely resembling tools work on their own stuff and *expletive deleted* it up then blame the object of their abominations.

[Sawdust]

Huh.

I've never had a problem with my Colt 1911; eats anything that I put through it.

So reliable that it used to be my edc.

But then again, I didn't go putting rubber grips on it, either.  

Sawdust