Free contraception does not create sluts, according to one study

[Tallpine]

Problem is, governments would be handing out the permits. So there would be corruption, bribery, favor trading, gerrymandering, red lining, unions, and other bad things in short order.

Only if the right people are not in charge 

[MillCreek]

Personal accountability and properly aligned incentives would go a long way towards solving these problems.  Private charities can handle what's left.

What are those incentives, then?  Let me describe one of my patients to you that one of my social workers has been dealing with: 22 year old white female, on welfare, unmarried, four children, none of the fathers are around, has been addicted to heroin for five years and now has Hep C, two unsuccessful stints in rehab, her parents sold their car and have been slowly doling out the money to her so that she would not have to go back to prostitution to buy the heroin, parents have just discovered that she has been turning tricks on the side and now the patient and her parents want us to start prescribing her opiates so she can stop using heroin and turning tricks.  Which we are not going to do.

Let me know how you would incentivize this patient to increase her personal accountability.

[Tallpine]

What are those incentives, then?  Let me describe one of my patients to you that one of my social workers has been dealing with: 22 year old white female, on welfare, unmarried, four children, none of the fathers are around, has been addicted to heroin for five years and now has Hep C, two unsuccessful stints in rehab, her parents sold their car and have been slowly doling out the money to her so that she would not have to go back to prostitution to buy the heroin, parents have just discovered that she has been turning tricks on the side and now the patient and her parents want us to start prescribing her opiates so she can stop using heroin and turning tricks.  Which we are not going to do.

Let me know how you would incentivize this patient to increase her personal accountability.

Spanking       

[MillCreek]

^^^ Geez, I wonder.  She has probably already incurred more healthcare costs at age 22 than I will ever incur in my life, unless I end up needing a heart transplant or something.  All her costs either paid for by the State of Washington or the healthcare providers eating the cost as bad debt.  Not to mention the kids as a cost center.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Perhaps we should start at the beginning.  You seem to take as a given that your patient's situation somehow represents an obligation on the part of the tax payers.  Can you explain why?

[Perd Hapley]

Or, start at the beginning of the beginning. If the social welfare net was not so vast and unaccountable, would there be so many people like her to begin with? If the schools were more accountable to local control than to federal rules and federal money, would there be so many people like her to begin with?

[Tallpine]

Maybe we should legalize prostitution to help out single mothers 

[MillCreek]

Perhaps we should start at the beginning.  You seem to take as a given that your patient's situation somehow represents an obligation on the part of the tax payers.  Can you explain why?

Simple.  As a society, we are not willing to let her die in the streets. And no private charities have stepped forward to support her. Can you suggest a viable alternative that can be implemented in the real world in today's political and social climate?

[MillCreek]

Or, start at the beginning of the beginning. If the social welfare net was not so vast and unaccountable, would there be so many people like her to begin with? If the schools were more accountable to local control than to federal rules and federal money, would there be so many people like her to begin with?

I am eager to hear your explanation of how the schools are to blame for this sort of person, and how local control would prevent this.

[Perd Hapley]

Simple.  As a society, we are not willing to let her die in the streets. And no private charities have stepped forward to support her. Can you suggest a viable alternative that can be implemented in the real world in today's political and social climate?

Have you asked any private charities?

How many private charities has she already been through, wore out, lied to, cheated, and turned against her?


"As a society, we are not willing to let her die in the streets."

In that case, we can shut down all the .gov organizations, and let her be cared for by whoever steps in.

[Perd Hapley]

I am eager to hear your explanation of how the schools are to blame for this sort of person, and how local control would prevent this.

Helps to look at the big picture, and not just react because your wife works at a school, and therefore I hurted your feels.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Simple.  As a society, we are not willing to let her die in the streets. And no private charities have stepped forward to support her. Can you suggest a viable alternative that can be implemented in the real world in today's political and social climate?

Indeed not.  All the more reason to trust the civil society can handle it.

Tell me again, why are the taxpayers are on the hook for this woman?  If anything, the generous taxpayer-funded benefits she already receives, and their apparent failure to date to get her on her feet, argue strongly against government checks as a good solution.

Perhaps we should look for better solutions.  Unless you think it's ok that her life is still a trainwreck...?

[MillCreek]

Helps to look at the big picture, and not just react because your wife works at a school, and therefore I hurted your feels.

Come on now, don't cop out.  Explain why the schools are accountable for these people.  Don't handwave the issue away.  

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Heh.  That cuts both ways.

Explain why the taxpayers are accountable for these people.  Don't just handwave the issue away.

[MillCreek]

Indeed not.  All the more reason to trust the civil society can handle it.

Tell me again, why are the taxpayers are on the hook for this woman?  If anything, the generous taxpayer-funded benefits she already receives, and their apparent failure to date to get her on her feet, argue strongly against government checks as a good solution.

Perhaps we should look for better solutions.  Unless you think it's ok that her life is still a trainwreck...?

So please tell us what is your better solution?  Be specific.  

[Balog]

What are those incentives, then?  Let me describe one of my patients to you that one of my social workers has been dealing with: 22 year old white female, on welfare, unmarried, four children, none of the fathers are around, has been addicted to heroin for five years and now has Hep C, two unsuccessful stints in rehab, her parents sold their car and have been slowly doling out the money to her so that she would not have to go back to prostitution to buy the heroin, parents have just discovered that she has been turning tricks on the side and now the patient and her parents want us to start prescribing her opiates so she can stop using heroin and turning tricks.  Which we are not going to do.

Let me know how you would incentivize this patient to increase her personal accountability.

Honest question: do you think the availability of free birth control is what is stopping this woman from being childless and STD free? Last I checked there are a number of places that provide no cost to the individual birth control: I know the free STD clinic at a building I used to work at did.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

So please tell us what is your better solution?  Be specific.  

I'm not sure I have time tonight for a lengthy discussion.

But can we agree that even without a lengthy explanation from me, there's still no good reason why we should hit up the taxpayers whenever someone gets themselves into trouble?  

Rejecting bad solutions doesn't solve the problem, but it does advance the process.

[MillCreek]

Honest question: do you think the availability of free birth control is what is stopping this woman from being childless and STD free? Last I checked there are a number of places that provide no cost to the individual birth control: I know the free STD clinic at a building I used to work at did.

Oh no, not at all.  In regards to this particular patient, I have not the faintest idea what is the funding sources for her birth control (if any) or if we provide it.  This patient story does not really apply to the original post about the article on free birth control and behavior.  It is more a response to the premise that personal accountability, responsibility and private charities, as opposed to government social services, can solve these issues.  When people make those sort of statements, I suspect that they may not have a whole lot of experience in actually dealing with people similar to my patient.

[MillCreek]

I'm not sure I have time tonight for a lengthy discussion.

But can we agree that even without a lengthy explanation from me, there's still no good reason why we should hit up the taxpayers whenever someone gets themselves into trouble?

Absolutely.  State support should be a last resort.  Bring back the work farms, I say.

[Balog]

Oh no, not at all.  In regards to this particular patient, I have not the faintest idea what is the funding sources for her birth control (if any) or if we provide it.  This patient story does not really apply to the original post about the article on free birth control and behavior.  It is more a response to the premise that personal accountability, responsibility and private charities, as opposed to government social services, can solve these issues.  When people make those sort of statements, I suspect that they may not have a whole lot of experience in actually dealing with people similar to my patient.

With all due respect, I don't see that story as making a compelling case for government social services solving that issue either. Perhaps there is no true "solution" to such people, and all we can do is attempt to reduce the damage they do to those around them?

[Jamisjockey]

Personal accountability and properly aligned incentives would go a long way towards solving these problems.  Private charities can handle what's left.

Welfare is here to stay.  Either we wean them off the test or just let more of them be produced.
 Get your head of the sand.

[Jamisjockey]

Perhaps we should start at the beginning.  You seem to take as a given that your patient's situation somehow represents an obligation on the part of the tax payers.  Can you explain why?

That genie is out of the bottle.  They vote in higher numbers than us.  Reality is a harsh mistress.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Oh, I agree completely.  It's probably not possible to eliminate the welfare state now.

[Perd Hapley]

Come on now, don't cop out.  Explain why the schools are accountable for these people.  Don't handwave the issue away. 

Guffaw. You'll notice I didn't blame the schools. I blamed federal meddling in the schools, which can't help but degrade them.

Are you seriously suggesting that a better education would not help people to grow into useful adults? Do you not think that better schooling would result in more prosperous citizens, thereby reducing poverty, and its associated ills?

And like I said, big picture. It's only one small part of what's wrong. I could just as easily have blamed government regulations (prosperity again), a culture that fails to properly disincentive fornication or drug use, and a hundred other things.


Oh, and since you're demanding an answer to your question, I will demand a response to my points below.

Have you asked any private charities?

How many private charities has she already been through, wore out, lied to, cheated, and turned against her?


"As a society, we are not willing to let her die in the streets."

In that case, we can shut down all the .gov organizations, and let her be cared for by whoever steps in.

[MillCreek]

With all due respect, I don't see that story as making a compelling case for government social services solving that issue either. Perhaps there is no true "solution" to such people, and all we can do is attempt to reduce the damage they do to those around them?

This, I think is a key point: there are some people, that for whatever reason, cannot be extricated from the safety net.  And it is perhaps a measure of our society of how we treat such people: with dignity or denigration.  I have been around long enough to see such people and realize that for some things within and without my span of control, there but for the grace of God go I.