Shooting aboard the USS Mahan

[Balog]

http://wavy.com/2014/03/25/two-dead-after-shooting-at-pier-at-naval-station-norfolk/

Civilian disarmed the Petty Officer of the Watch and used that gun to kill a sailor. Security forces responded, killed the civilian.

[MillCreek]

I am somewhat surprised that the Watch PO is armed while in port at Norfolk.  I would have thought that with concern over ADs and what not, that there would only be armed watchstanders in foreign or civilian ports or for the boomers.

[Tallpine]

I am somewhat surprised that the Watch PO is armed while in port at Norfolk.  I would have thought that with concern over ADs and what not, that there would only be armed watchstanders in foreign or civilian ports or for the boomers.

Especially when someone will just take the gun away and use it against him.

[Phyphor]

Yeah, that sounds an awful lot like "Holy crap, did that just happen?" went through that Watch's head.


I wonder if we'll ever find out why he did it?

Glad the response team put the *expletive deleted*er down, though.

[MillCreek]

I wonder what Condition of carry is set forth in the standing orders.  I am guessing that at a minimum, there was a loaded magazine in the pistol and there may or may not have been a round chambered.  I have been on board the quarterdeck of ships here in Naval Station Everett and noticed the empty magazine well in the M-9 being carried by the Watch sailor at the gangplank.

[French G.]

Watchstanding changed after 9/11. Back in the day we had what was later determined to be an inside job, civilian came up and relieved two pier watches of their condition 4 guns. I used to stand pier watch in front of two CVNs with no gun, no radio, and a phone that might work to one of the ships. Oh, and busloads of foreign tourist coming up asking for tours and pictures because Naval Base Norfolk was an open base, zero access control, anyone could drive on. That lasted until the Africa embassy bombings, a night that I was on watch coincidentally. Not much of a coincidence since I was on watch a lot.

Post 9/11, I stood OOD with a C1 M9, at least one other gun at the QD whether a shotgun watch from security or the Petty Officer of the Watch. Other armed rovers loose on the ship. Not ideal, but yes armed and loaded. Always an assigned response team too, draw arms in event of an emergency, I usually had to head up one of those too.

Navy small arms start to lose me once they get to training. The 25yard pistol qual was done away with, 15 yard max. The practical portion of the qual was very mickey mouse due to range safety fears. (Whatcha mean I can't dump the mag while moving from P1 to P2?) Okay, so you gave me an M16A3 for topside rover. Yay. I'm guessing you big Navy types specifically demanded the full happy switch to make the popgun more useful for hosing small craft. Oh, but in training you made it clear that under the pain of rape by Cthulu that I was never ever to touch the happy switch. I have pretty much unlimited fields of fire. So, where's my zero, what are my come-ups? Who knows, I was issued this thing coming on watch and will turn it back in. A capable 600 yd gun in the right hands rendered somewhat useless.

[freakazoid]

Here in SD it's C1 M9, for the POOW. Topside Rover also carries C1 M9 and C3 M4/M16. Over seas, and if the RAM plan specifies it here, then more people will be armed.

The 25yard pistol qual was done away with, 15 yard max.

We do 25 yards when we go to a place on base. When we are out at sea then we do it on the flight deck so we don't have the room for that distance.

Yay. I'm guessing you big Navy types specifically demanded the full happy switch to make the popgun more useful for hosing small craft. Oh, but in training you made it clear that under the pain of rape by Cthulu that I was never ever to touch the happy switch.

Yup. Don't even look at it.

So, where's my zero, what are my come-ups? Who knows, I was issued this thing coming on watch and will turn it back in.

Yup. Sort of makes me nervous if I had an opening to take a longer range shot if I'm carrying the M4/M16.

[AJ Dual]

Walk the splashes in I guess.. 

[KD5NRH]

We do 25 yards when we go to a place on base. When we are out at sea then we do it on the flight deck so we don't have the room for that distance.

You didn't have something big and relatively flat, like, say, an ocean nearby?  Toss some stale bread out for targets.

[KD5NRH]

Especially when someone will just take the gun away and use it against him.

That does seem like a duty for which a level 3 or 4 retention holster and an always-ready PR-24 would be a good choice.

Then again, I always preferred the "decoy and sniper" method of armed access control.

[Hutch]

Please describe what Condition 1 means for an M9 Beretta.  I thought it necessarily meant hammer back, safety on, which I understand to be impossible on the 92FS

[RoadKingLarry]

Sounds a Little better than when I was in. Pre Desert Storm topside watch carried an unloaded 1911 with 2 mags loaded with 5 rounds each in the mag pouch.
The Armed Guard in the torpedo room was armed the same way.
After DS we added a topside sentry armed with an unloaded riot gun with a pouch with 10 rounds of 00 buckshot. At that time the Duty Officer and Duty Chief were also issued 1911s. with the same ammo load out as the others so armed.
We maintained that when overseas as well.
For "special" situations we added a man with a M14 w/2 mags loaded with either 10 or 15 rounds (I can't remember) topside. I got to be that guy when we were handling "special" weapons.

None of the small arms training we got had anything to do with weapons retention, actual tactics or anything else beyond very basic operation, safety and marksmanship. I doubt that part has changed much.

[freakazoid]

Please describe what Condition 1 means for an M9 Beretta.  I thought it necessarily meant hammer back, safety on, which I understand to be impossible on the 92FS

Magazine inserted
Slide forward
Round chambered
Safety on

[Hutch]

Magazine inserted
Slide forward
Round chambered
Safety on

Ah.  Thanks.  So, condition one is better understood as "Round in chamber, safety on".  A 1911 must have the hammer back to engage safety.  It make so much sense now!

[Scout26]

Last 6 months I was in Germany the USAREUR Provost Marshal ordered that 1911's be carried unloaded with two 5 round magazines carried in the pouch.   Not because MP's were going all shoot crazy on GI's and German civilians, but because there had been a couple of clearing barrels killed at shift changes.

So since the safety feature/steps worked as intended, we had to be double-secret-extra-special-nerf safe, because giving Snuffy a Company Grade Art 15 when he woke up everyone in the barracks at 1am with a loud *BANG*, is far too hard.

I was Company Safety Officer and remember telling my Company Commander that if we had a .001% (.00001) fail rate at clearing, then we would have "only" 1-2 clearing accidents per year.   I thought he was going to have a stroke.  

[280plus]

Chances are, it was over a woman. When I was in 75-80 QD watch had a 1911, not sure if it was loaded etc. apparently they did carry some loaded mags.This was to guard nuke capable ASROC. 

When I visited the Caron post Cole incident there was a boom around the ship and a small boat in the water patrolling the inner area with at least a SG on board.

[280plus]

I got some questions in over at the old ship's FB page on what was carried when and how on the QD. More to follow.

[280plus]

Here's a bunch of replies:

Hey you guys that stood QD watch in port, what type of arm(s) did you carry, and what years. What condition did you carry in? Were they loaded?did you have ammo? Please note any changes during your time of service. Thanks!

Greg Broekhuizen i think they carrie the standand 45 for years
 
Ted Crammer 1911, unloaded, but loaded magazine available. Orders were , "Don't load it, and don't play with the firearm." I always found that offensive. Did we ever get to practice or become familiar with the weapon? Nope, except for once while at sea, off the fantail. 1970-73
 
Kenneth E Kane I agree with Ted. Felt like Barney Fife. I do remember shooting on the fantail. When I made SK2, they let me shoot a BAR lying down on the deck. Slid my ass across the deck!!! Shot one magazine on the 45, out across the water.. Yep, you're qualified!
   
Kenneth E Kane Oh Yea, I think I remember one time we had roving patrols on board with unloaded M-16, but I can't remember why or where...old fart!
   
Christenson Harold qtr deck watch, 45 no bullets, ASROC watch 45 full clip inserted
   
Ted Crammer At one time the ETs were being considered for ASROC watch. The question posed to me was, "Would you shoot someone attempting to break into the system?" or some such question. I answered "No." They should have asked, "If you don't have to stand quarterdeck watch, would you like to stand watch on ASROC?" Sure, and when I blow away someone who doesn't belong there will you have my back?
   
Christenson Harold Being an ET myself, we did not need to stand ASROC watch at sea, which always seemed kind of dumb to me to have the watch at sea, in port yes at sea, I don't know.
 
Michael Titus They were concerned with being boarded under way. Seals did exercises where they would board you underway and take over the ship to prove ASROC was vulneralble. They told us when it was coming and we let them know that our standing orders were shoot to kill any intruder coming or going. Since PRP had no drill scenarios the Seals moved to ships with no Rovers underway.
   
Michael Titus I always carried my Colt unloaded.
   
Michael Titus I can neither confirm nor deny the presence of nuclear weapons on board the U.S.S. Buchanan. But I will shoot your ass if you get within arms length of me--nothing personal.
   
    Bill McNary During mid 60s, we carried an unloaded 45. But we did have training on the 45 in Boot Camp. I could assemble and disassemble it. We got to have target practice. As an FTG, I never did the ASROC watch.
e
    David Malone Yup... an unloaded .45 ACP, with two mags on the duty belt, each with 7 rounds in it. They were talking about switching over to the 9mm Baretta in the next year when I left in October, 1980.
   
    Mark Falade I don't ever remember an ASROC watch with a weapon, (76-80) just the QD watch. What years was there an ASROC watch?
   e
    Mark Falade Dave, do you recall an ASROC watch?
   
    Mark Falade I remember one time we had a security drill and they handed me an unloaded M1 ( I think, definitely not an M16) and we kindof played cowboys an indians
   
    David Malone Yup... the ASROC rover also carried a .45 ACP. Just ask LCDR Girvin. He didn't stop when ordered to do so by the ASROC rover one night during a security drill. The next sound he heared was the ASROC rover locking & loading.
 
    Mark Falade I'll bet that slowed him down a bit. lol
   
    David Malone M-14 Mark. I was on the backup alert force, and they were handing them to me.
   
    Ted Crammer I sometimes do armed security work. Carry a 9mm with one in the pipe ready to go, with Glock or Beretta. The guys who carry 1911 carry cocked and locked, as was intended by Mr. Browning. When comparing my military experience, kinda makes me wonder WTF.
   
    Mark Falade Ah, M1A is the civilian designation of the M14. So I was close.Not an M1 Garand though?
   
    Michael Titus I was recruited for ASROC Rover in late 79 or early 80. I became ASROC Rover watch-bill coordinator in late 81.
   
    Mark Falade Exactly, I have both a Browning HP in 9mm and a couple 1911 and all were intended to be carried with one in the chamber cocked and locked. How effective of a defense of the ship could be expected with no mag or rounds in the firearm? I wonder now about...See More
   
    Michael Titus Here's your typical ASROC ROVER on watch. Smitty about to be blackmailed for gun-decking the watch. (pic of guy reading book somewhere below deck)
 
Michael Titus We had to re-qualify every 6 mos with the Colt to stand ASROC Rover.
 
    Mark Falade What year was this Mike?

    Mark Falade I mean, even an attack that simply blew the launcher and spread the material around would have been disastrous.

    Kenneth E Kane Always amazed me that the ASROC "could" have nuclear capabilities, but had very limited range!!

    Mark Falade Just went over to your FB page Mike, saw that wolf driving the souped up ship. Oddly enough in around 78 we had a contest for a logo for the ship. I submitted a similar drawing of the Buch with a pretty damn good caricature of the Captain (Roger Barnett) driving and the fantail of a Russian ship exiting the page. Didn't win. lol

    Michael Titus Pic was from 81.
 
    Mark Falade yep, the "procedure" was to head in one direction at flank speed and fire the thing off in the opposite direction, then you were supposed to place your head firmly between your knees and kiss your ass goodbye. At least that's the way I heard it.
   
    Mark Falade That's pretty funny Mike. I still wonder what the brass thought when they saw my entry.

[280plus]

One more :

Michael Titus When I was interviewed by the XO for Rover I was only asked one question. "Would you shoot through the Captain to stop an intruder from entering or leaving a secured area? My reply was; "In a heartbeat." They (officers in the Ward Room) looked at each other for second or two and the XO turns to me--"your hired".

 

[KD5NRH]

Michael Titus When I was interviewed by the XO for Rover I was only asked one question. "Would you shoot through the Captain to stop an intruder from entering or leaving a secured area? My reply was; "In a heartbeat." They (officers in the Ward Room) looked at each other for second or two and the XO turns to me--"your hired".

The correct answer includes "however, given the usual terminal ballistics of .45ACP hardball, it would most likely take several shots to fully penetrate the captain, so I'll need a few extra mags if you're expecting that scenario."

[Balog]

Last 6 months I was in Germany the USAREUR Provost Marshal ordered that 1911's be carried unloaded with two 5 round magazines carried in the pouch.   Not because MP's were going all shoot crazy on GI's and German civilians, but because there had been a couple of clearing barrels killed at shift changes.

So since the safety feature/steps worked as intended, we had to be double-secret-extra-special-nerf safe, because giving Snuffy a Company Grade Art 15 when he woke up everyone in the barracks at 1am with a loud *BANG*, is far too hard.

I was Company Safety Officer and remember telling my Company Commander that if we had a .001% (.00001) fail rate at clearing, then we would have "only" 1-2 clearing accidents per year.   I thought he was going to have a stroke.  

5 round? Officer's model or just underloading the mags for some reason?

[RoadKingLarry]

5 round? Officer's model or just underloading the mags for some reason?

Underloaded mags. At the time I was in the small arms people still operated under the theory that a spring would fail from continuous compression.

I "dodged a bullet" once on my last boat. I was standing NWASG in the torpedo room one weekend and on the last watch of the night I got bored and started stripping and reassembling my issue 1911. It went well the 1st 10-12 times but I eventually managed to launch the spring plug. I watched it in slow motion as it arced across the torpedo room while it adjusted it's trajectory to land in the port bilge under the tubes. Lucky for me the oncoming torpedoman was also a good friend and the small arms petty officer.

[Fitz]

Underloaded mags. At the time I was in the small arms people still operated under the theory that a spring would fail from continuous compression.

I "dodged a bullet" once on my last boat. I was standing NWASG in the torpedo room one weekend and on the last watch of the night I got bored and started stripping and reassembling my issue 1911. It went well the 1st 10-12 times but I eventually managed to launch the spring plug. I watched it in slow motion as it arced across the torpedo room while it adjusted it's trajectory to land in the port bilge under the tubes. Lucky for me the oncoming torpedoman was also a good friend and the small arms petty officer.

Underloaded mags are still kinda common in the army, for issued mags... but it's not due to theory of failure from continuous compression, but observation of poor function when fully loaded, due to shitty old mags that have never had springs replaced.

When i deployed, first thing I did is take all the issued mags i had, swapped the followers and put new quality springs in.

[280plus]

http://wtkr.com/2014/03/26/condolences-for-navy-ma-mark-mayo/

http://wtkr.com/2014/03/25/fatal-shooting-at-naval-station-norfolk-2-dead/

[Hawkmoon]

Ah.  Thanks.  So, condition one is better understood as "Round in chamber, safety on".  A 1911 must have the hammer back to engage safety.  It make so much sense now!

Close.

In fact, the "conditions" were articulated by Jeff Cooper specifically with respect to the 1911. To be accurate, they don't apply to the M9 at all.

Condition 1 is "cocked and locked."