Author Topic: Guys, girls, and gays  (Read 6277 times)

Guest

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« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2006, 07:26:03 PM »
You also never hear women say "Boy, I'd like to see those two guys get it on."

So there's no suspicion of women being in gay bars because she's going to get to see boys make out and tell her buddies about it over beers the next day. Not necessarily true of men in lesbian bars.

I'm kind of speculating here, because I've never been in gay or lesbian bar and until this conversation, didn't know they were two seperate things.

mfree

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« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2006, 07:37:30 PM »
"You also never hear women say "Boy, I'd like to see those two guys get it on." "

Oh-ho-ho-ho yes you do. Go read some fanfic sometime. A friend of mine writes Smallville fanfic and just goes *gaga* when there's any little inkling of male to male attraction on TV.

Fjolnirsson

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« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2006, 07:38:01 PM »
Quote
You also never hear women say "Boy, I'd like to see those two guys get it on."
You just haven't met the right women, Barbara.Tongue
Hi.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2006, 08:12:11 PM »
Slash  

Shudder...

Sylvilagus Aquaticus

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« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2006, 09:12:59 PM »
Ok, I feel like I don't have a dog in this hunt, because I'm so vanilla straight I even creep myself out sometimes.

However, almost all my female friends are Lebanese. I work with a bunch of women who are card-carriers. My stepsister is 'very outdoorsy', with the Timberlines, flannel shirts, short hair and live-in girl-husband. She's the brother I would have rather had. We hunt together sometimes, rode motorcycles together, drank, caroused the bars, and worked on engines together in our younger days. I ain't skeert of them. I kinda like the rough old dykes. Like being around a DI that has your best interest in mind.

One of my old girlfriends from long ago got back in contact with me about 3 years back. She's started playing for the other team these days. I told SWMBO all about her and we all met for lunch one day; us, T., and her girl-husband. SWMBO thinks the world of her, as I still do.  

Gain my respect, respect me, and we can cover for each other.  I don't care if folks are gay, straight, pink, purple, or covered in itty bitty blue polka dots.  It's the person that matters.

Regards,
Rabbit.
To punish me for my contempt for authority, fate made me an authority myself.
Albert Einstein

James Fitzer

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« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2006, 09:17:11 PM »
"Gain my respect, respect me, and we can cover for each other.  I don't care if folks are gay, straight, pink, purple, or covered in itty bitty blue polka dots.  It's the person that matters."

Truer words have never been spoken.

gunsmith

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« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2006, 09:41:31 PM »
great thread.
I used to work with a famous lesbian punk rocker and used to be really good friends with her
(Lynne Breedlove of Tribe 8 )   http://www.tribe8.com/
Lynne and her bandmates and fans never ever made me (or the other staight guys looking
at the topless punker lesbians at her shows) feel uncomfortable or anything, treated us real nice and made lewder
comments then I ever dreamed of.
I have another friend in San Francisco who gets girls all the time, he's 47 dresses in drag and hangs out in dyke bars. He has tons of good looking girlfriends in their 20's!!! he is also a commie and a gun nut!
He accidently converted me to being a conservative in the 1990's because we both hated Clinton
and he insisted that I listen to Rush Limbaugh because it had so much fun info for Clinton haters.
So I listened and ...yup...I converted to Conservatisim and Christianity.
(I was raised Catholic but was an anarchist punk rocker who didn't like the nuns hitting me for spelling things wrong as a kid)
As a cab driver in Reno I noticed that gay men will tip better if I tell them I used to live in San Francisco.
We have Dykes all over Reno, it's much more affordable then SF.

Barbara, a young good looking gal a few doors down tells me she likes "guy on guy" action...perhaps it's her way of saying "I'm not sleeping with you"...

I can't stand "queer eye" If a gal don't like my ...uh...style (really the lack of it) she can go get her self a metro sexual ...as I'm closing in on 50 I find I can care less about what others think about frivolous things...
Don't mess with my guns and other rights and I can care less about who you marry or sleep with
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Strings

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« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2006, 11:05:52 PM »
>"Most guys are insecure with their sexuality"?  First of all I think you are overestimating due to the above misunderstanding.  But I will grant a lot of men are.  Why?  Because masculinity has been redefined to mean brutishness.  Men today are told that any refinement of manners or taste is feminine.  Any sensitivity, appreciation for poetry, etc. is thought of as shedding brutish masculinity and getting in touch with one's "feminine side," as if men had such a thing.  So when a guy has any of these refinements, he wonders about himself.<

DINGDINGDINGDING!!! We have a winnah!!!

Wow... fistful wrote something i agree with... world must be coming to an end... Wink

 I've been the "token straight in a gay club" (club in Appleton that USED to have THE best dance floor). Yes, women in gay bars are less defensive... MUCH less defensive. I also noticed there that gay men, when they realize a straight doesn't care about their choices, will generally get rabidly defensive of said straight...

  I also noticed that Lebanese girls tend to come in two "types": man-hating "vagitarians", and fairly nice "Lebanese girls". And no, you can NOT tell the difference by looking at them...

 I used to hang out a LOT with a Lebanese friend: had a crush on her in high school, finally found the balls to say something about it, and found out she weren't interested in boys. Then I found out we had the same taste in women (and she found out I wasn't interested in trying to "convert" her). Some of the best times I ever had were hanging out with her...

 My dad, WAAAYY back before he met mom, used to stop in at lesbian bar in San Diego on his way to work. He'd go in, have a beer, joke around with the bar tender... never caused a problem. One day, one of the bull-dykes decided she didn't like some guy in "her" bar... the bartender explained the facts of life to her via a Louisville Slugger...

 People are people, Dick... and most aren't worth the powder to blow 'em to Hell. I had a woman at Ren Faire this season berate me for sending a friend roses, because I'm married. Same woman had been telling my (gee, married) sister that she should sleep with some guy at Faire, 'cause he was "a good lay"...

Wow... stream of consciousness... time for bed...

Monkeyleg

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« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2006, 12:53:19 PM »
I hope I didn't come across as making gross generalizations about gays or lesbians. The number of times we went to lesbian bars was very few, primarily because of the reaction.

A Lebanese* friend of ours was seemingly hetero when we met her back in the mid-1970's. She went through a terrible relationship with a guy, and after that decided she liked women better.

When she decided she wanted children, she found a guy she liked and married him. She has three great kids now, and seems very happy. My wife has said that she's bisexual. Fine.

*My wife and I have terms we use that one or the other of us comes up with. The term "Lebanese girls" came from her. She also calls her gay friends "G-Men." We call a gun a "gub," which came from the Woody Allen movie, "Take the Money and Run."

We use these terms so often that we forget that other people don't understand, which results in no shortage of curious expressions.

grampster

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« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2006, 04:05:54 PM »
Quote from: SylAq
"Gain my respect, respect me, and we can cover for each other.  I don't care if folks are gay, straight, pink, purple, or covered in itty bitty blue polka dots.  It's the person that matters."
That comment pretty much hits the nail on the head for me.  Swmbo and I love Key West.  Been going there for years.   KW seems to be a place where just about anything goes if you look closely.  We've had a lot of good times with folks who are "happy" or "lebanese".  Sexuality never comes up unless it is framed in good natured bantering amongst friends.  

I've always believed one's sexuality is intensely personal.  There are too many other human traits that one can focus upon that causes people to become friends.  Why promote, scrutinize or isolate behavior that tends to divide?  What goes on in the bedroom is no one's business.

Hey Trisha, can I get a ride in the Lexus?
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Antibubba

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« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2006, 05:56:43 PM »
Quote
Gain my respect, respect me, and we can cover for each other.  I don't care if folks are gay, straight, pink, purple, or covered in itty bitty blue polka dots.  It's the person that matters.
Mostly I agree, except for those blue polka dot folk-they give me the creeps.   Wink
If life gives you melons, you may be dyslexic.

Guest

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« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2006, 12:49:42 AM »
Hater.

Smiley

Trisha

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« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2006, 07:32:06 AM »
We've gone through not only the toaster, but the waffle iron, the blender, the standing mixer, the food processor, the convection oven, the dishwasher - you get the idea.

Recruiting is fun!  It's easy!  And, you get to teach lots of people to shoot, too!

Keeping guys out of the way and sending them into seclusion, pondering the lint in their navel is a breeze: just hand them Kate Bornstein's interactive publication, "My Gender Workbook."  It's completely non-threatening, nothing more sinister than a multiple-choice test!

(chuckling. . .)

Over the years it's been less than a handful of people who've approached us, with questions they'd struggled with  - in some cases - for much of their lives.  The funny thing is, we've gotten something of a reputation for it locally, though.

If you're so vanilla straight that it even creeps you out sometimes, don't let it bother you.  It can happen to the nicest people you'd ever want to meet, and it's wrong to make them feel weird, or left out.  Sometimes it goes further than social programming - they were born that way!  We try hard to break them of lives lived in fear, behind walls of extremist phobias.  With an investment of time and patience, some can discover rich, full lives that make meaningful contributions.

It's like in the old days, before the human genome incontravertably proved that it's coded in the genes, before the physical proof finally broke down all but the fanatics' bastions of denial, even back decades before Stonewall - yep, that long ago: From the fall of Delphi and the rape of the Sabines, wth the rise of the patriarchial model the sole way the power structure has been maintained has been to defend the male as the dominant social authority.  And anyone who didn't conform faced being completely outcast, even death.  They celebrated it as being normal.

But even after such a black night of despair there came a dawn - and with it, confusion.  Though they had eyes, they rejected what they saw for a time. . .

Only for a time.  It's human nature to learn, eventually, even to grow.

(shy)

Anyway.

grampster, IRL it isn't ever going to be a Lexus, save emotionally.  Owning self-acceptance without reservation or inhibition is less a luxury and, as the years go by, less fragile.  Learning to believe in myself enough to claim a right to more than merely exist but to contribute as is within my abilities to the larger fabric of community and implicitly, society; to don the mantle that was waiting for me all along of liberty and train in arms and study history, well, it's a clean and well-maintained pick-up.  The allegorical concept of coming home to myself is a tangible reality.  There have been physical and emotional wounds that healed badly, leaving scars - but I own them, too, without rancor these days.

I may not have memory, but the pattern of being myself feels pretty resolved, and I can enjoy nothing more complicated than being.

It is touching to see the contributors to this thread voice permission for one such as me to exist.  That's staggering social progress in little more than a few decades.
and cello sonatas flow through the air. . .

"Diversity is our strength!"

Lee

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« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2006, 07:46:18 AM »
I could really care less about someone's sexuality or ethnicity.  What I DO
 hate is when someone assumes that I, a 50 year old white male, is a bigot and should be proactively hated...which happens all the time.

Trisha

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« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2006, 08:04:08 AM »
Bummer, dude!
and cello sonatas flow through the air. . .

"Diversity is our strength!"

doczinn

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« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2006, 08:30:41 AM »
I'm straight. No hint of any attarction to males at all.

BUT: I also have no problem at all with someone else's chocie of who to bump uglies with. It simply ain't my business, and I don't wanna make it my business.

BUT: I find the idea of men having sex with men to be utterly, totally, completely, 100% repulsive. The same as I found it repulsive when a friend of mine (who weighed about 105) described his ideal type of woman as "unhuggable."

SO: a place like a gay bar, where the activity is generally oriented toward an activity that thoroughly disgusts me, is a place that I will generally avoid like the plague.

If that makes me a homophobe, hate away.
D. R. ZINN

Trisha

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« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2006, 08:54:54 AM »
(pondering monkeyleg's question - d )

I don't know, but for some reason, circa the Nixon administration, I hear the whispered echoes of Deep Throat:

"Follow the money!"

If I had to guess, I could easily suspect keeping the LBGT community locked into a stereotype that receives "community funding"  patently pays for votes.  Real or imagined, it could well be nothing more than a voting block.

The rest?

Everything is relative. . .in it's own waaaaay. . .

(sing it!)
and cello sonatas flow through the air. . .

"Diversity is our strength!"

roo_ster

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« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2006, 09:09:07 AM »
[Insert stock protestations of tolerance, inoffensiveness, etc. that you find most palliative.]

Quote
a). why do gay males accept hetero females into their culture?
Well, so many highly visible gay males take their cues from women.  Flamboyant gay male culture seems to be parasitic or derivative of aspects of feminine culture and would not exist without it.

Also, I think some hetero women like hte idea of males they can socialize/girl talk (or speak of what has become characherized as feminine) with and be less worried if every guy they meet wants to sleep wiht them.  

Quote
b) why are some, if not most, hetero guys afraid to confront their own sexuality?
I'm sure some do.  Getting at the root of it is, I am sure, a very individualized affair.  

I suspect that the question has a faulty premise: that a disgust/dislike/aversion to things homosexual is a sign of insecuirty or inward turmoil.  Also, in cases where there is some sort of "fear" it might be less a question of, "Am I gay?" and more a "Holy cow, I'm all wound around the axle WRT sex in general!"

Alomst ALL societies* have had a pretty hard line vis a vis homosexuality.  There has been some bit of work trying to determine if this is a cultural artifact or a genetic survival trait (as opposed to inborn, a good discussion of which can be found here).  Now, wouldn't that be a hoot?  Two groups squaring off with each other & claiming victim status.  It would be almost as good as the enviro-nut vs indian kerfluffle when it was ruled the indians could hunt whales, again...with motorboats and Barret .50cal rifles.

Quote
) why are "Lebanese women" hostile toward seemingly everyone?
Most I have met have been the, "I want to live my life with my partner" lebanese rather than the man-hating-bull-dyke kind.  I think that those that frequent lebanese bars or otherwise congregate togehter (in large groups) are much more into "being gay" than the lebanese couple that buys a house in the burbs, has two dogs, and is worried about the mortgage, car payment, and if hte new family across the street will mow their yard & keep up the neighborhood standards.

Also, a lot of it may be location, location, location.  A far-left locality with feminist reading rooms and the like, will harbor much more hostility toward men and masculinity.

Quote
d) why have the leaders of the gay rights movement not learned to keep the leather-bound crowd away from the cameras?
Because, at its foundation, a lot of the "Hey, I'm GAY!" homosexuals** are more about disparaging the norms and standards of the majority than about applied sexuality.

If gays can't march down Main Street in buttless chaps, the terrorists will have won!  (A distillation of an argument made by Pim Fortuyn, Dutch politician, promoter of homosexuality, and possible pedophile, when he spoke on hte effects of muslim immigration into the Netherlands.  He was later killed by a leftist dutchman for his ideas.)




* "Almost ALL" is used because we may find one where openly practicing gay couples were accepted in polite society without remark, penalty, etc.  Even Greek civ, normally considered "gay friendly" in the currnet misconception was only partially so.  In the mentor/pupil relationship it was considered very bad form to "get jiggy with it."  Also, the male on the receiving end was viewed with scorn and derision as taking the part of the female.  

** As opposed to the homosexuals who seem to be more about living their life, like the rest of humanity, with their sexuality as part of their beings rather than the reason for thier existance.

Whoops, hit "submit" rahter than "preview" the first time 'round.
Regards,

roo_ster

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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2006, 09:55:05 AM »
Trisha,

Exist away.  It is indeed terrible that homosexuality has been persecuted with violence or threats thereof.  I prefer conversation, where applicable.  

I'm curious how a bias against homosexuality corresponds with patriarchy.  Or is it a bias against lesbianism of which you speak?

I should also like to encourage you to look further into this matter of genetic determinism vis-a-vis sexuality.  I don't believe it has been proven in any degree, much less "incontrovertably."  Unfortunately, I'm not an expert in such matters.  I can ask, however, why does genetic determinism militate for the position that homosexuality is normal or acceptable?  Genes are not infallible.
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
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AJ Dual

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« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2006, 09:56:31 AM »
Quote
why are "Lebanese women" hostile toward seemingly everyone?
I find the connection between bias against lesbianisim and patriarchy interesting.
A "pragmatic" patriarchy might view a certain rate of male homosexualithy as desireable, or at least tolerable, if one looks behind the initial façade of intolerance and homophobia. "The reduction in competition argument" if you will.

OTOH, that same "pragmatic" sense would cause a patriarchy to view female homosexuality as threatening, because it reduces the pool of availible mates, and it creates the preception of competition.
If that social dynamic actualy exists, that undercurrent of hostility may feed into the "angry lesbian" stereotype. And perhaps a hetero-male has some hard-wiring that makes an identified lesbian "seem" hostile for those very reasons whether she is or not?

Aside from that, I do think part of it is that the "Angry man-hating bull-dyke Lesbian" stereotype is what (clueless) people remember when they're forcibly confronted with someone they know is a Lesbian. All the while, they may have been surrounded by friendly "lipsticks" that they never gave a second thought to. And all the Lesbians in-between those two extremes get dismissed as "plain", "hippy/nature girl", "tomboy", or as an otherwise hetero or neutral/asexual woman who's simply not obsessed with her femininity&

I will say that I've run across more aggressive and unfriendly bull-dyke types than friendly outgoing bulls, however I admit right up front that my single statistical sample is hardly representative of anything, and my own perceptions may be warped! However I do wonder what the driving force behind the legitamate examples of the "angry bull" is.

Jealousy over the perceived (and real) competition with men, if they're attracted to fems?

Expressing the stress and dissatisfaction that being homosexual still causes in society?

Being masculine identified, but never, by definition, being as masculine as a man?

Genetics?

In some extreme cases of angry-bull syndrome I've seen, literally seething every second, looking to pick a fight with the world,  I suspect it's a toxic brew of some if not all of the above. Again, going by my limited experiences, every stereotypically angry bull I've seen or met in person gave me the instinctual sense that they were deeply unhappy people.

And the notion that there are no gays who are hateful, angry, or resentful of women, while it might be "true" as a stereotype, it's far from universal. Through my Mother and my wife who are both in different facets of the performing arts, I've been exposed to a larger share of gay men than my suburban Milwaukee upbringing would have normally. The misogyny tends to leak around the corners, and it expresses itself in a mix of high-school girl-clique-like cattiness, and crude humor you'd more likely expect from sailors or a construction site.
I promise not to duck.

Trisha

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« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2006, 10:47:40 AM »
I drifted a little into allegory, fistful, 'twas a nip by the gadfly of "make believe", nothing more.

It happens.

If I had put it into italics and qualified it as such, confusion could've been avoided.  The perception of bias, as relevant to the patriarchial social model?  Nothing more complicated than a notion that a simplified, hetero structure defends said simplicity.  It's much less complicated to scribe demarcations that way.

Against the learned and fluent intellectual, my perceptions and notions could well be soundly trounced; they're a result of being an outsider who gets infrequent and brief social participation by necessity.

Likely, I should know better than to enter such discourse!  There are files of past notes from those in stealth mode, as well as others which reiterate, "Why do you bother!?" and "You've got it all wrong - it's nothing like that these days; get out more!"

(shrugging)

It's not that I'm intractible, much less obtuse - I just don't get to remember, and then intuitively draw on experience with subtlty.

jfruser, I find resonance with Steve Martin's early character discovering he's got rhythm.  Good post.
and cello sonatas flow through the air. . .

"Diversity is our strength!"

Perd Hapley

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« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2006, 11:10:17 AM »
Trisha,

Thanks for spelling my name correctly.  Should I interpret your comment as:

"Nothing personal, fistful, but I'd just rather not get into this subject with you, especially as the narrower focus of the thread is more interesting to me."?

My comments were off-topic, I know.
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
--Thomas Jefferson

Trisha

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« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2006, 11:34:15 AM »
No, I spoke clearly and without subterfugI do, however, need to get to Rescue Base and pick up a load of trash and take it to the dump - one of the local refuse collection businesses up here has arbitrarily shut its doors, and we can't have any construable health concern at the ambulance barn.

Think in terms of vested interests in a rigid social structure, and you'll probably extrapolate more substance than I could elucidate coherently.

(cheerily)

TTFN!
and cello sonatas flow through the air. . .

"Diversity is our strength!"

Perd Hapley

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« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2006, 11:46:29 AM »
What am I doing in this thread?  I don't even go to "straight" bars.
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
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« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2006, 12:47:26 PM »
Quote from: fistful
What am I doing in this thread?  I don't even go to "straight" bars.
I've been watching this thread and keeping quiet, but... yeah, I'm with you there. I don't care anything about that "rooster strutting" deal competing over women. It's easy to get caught up in, but it looks really really dumb. Being straight though, I really don't care for guys hitting on me, not that that's happened in a long time.

FWIW, I'm sort of aquainted with a lesbian couple... they're into horses and guns and that's what we have in common. Thing about them is if you don't know they're lesbian, you won't know it. And they're as cool with me being straight as I am with them being lesbian. We're not getting into each other's sexuality. We're just doing the "live and let live" thing and enjoying the mutual interest. As individuals, this couple is nice people. I do recall though finding out who the lesbians are/were in my area- the ones who work at Home Depot- and seeing a negative reaction from them. What happened... my sister is straight and she went to work at Home Depot here and wound up knowing who they were at that time. We ran into them in the restraunt that one night early on... I think they didn't like it knowing their co-worker was straight and in a straight family. But then, they also catch it from the religious angle around here too... I think it's a Bible Belt thing in some respects.

Lee
(Today 07:46:18)
Quote
I could really care less about someone's sexuality or ethnicity.  What I DO
hate is when someone assumes that I, a 50 year old white male, is a bigot and should be proactively hated...which happens all the time.
Yeah. That's about the long and short of it.