Author Topic: There's too much free speechifiying going on.  (Read 2767 times)

Scout26

  • I'm a leaf on the wind.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,997
  • I spent a week in that town one night....
There's too much free speechifiying going on.
« on: May 01, 2014, 11:28:14 AM »
Sen. Chuck U. Shumer has decided that the recent USSC decisions in regards to the 1A simply go too far.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/30/editorial-the-democratic-billionaires-club/


The money quote(s):
Quote
“The First Amendment is sacred,” says Mr. Schumer, “but the First Amendment is not absolute, and by making it absolute you actually make it less sacred to most Americans.”

That’s just the sort of thing a politician who has “grown” too much in office might say. William F. Buckley Jr. must have had Mr. Schumer in mind when he told a critic, “I won’t insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said.”


Meanwhile the disparagement and derision of the Koch brothers continues unabated, but George Soros, Michael Bloomberg, and Tom Steyer are never mentioned.

There's no double standard here, move along.  It's almost time for Harry Reid's daily "Two Minutes Hate" of Emanuel Goldstein the Koch brothers on the Senate Floor.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,341
Re: There's too much free speechifiying going on.
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2014, 01:43:44 PM »
?? HUH ??

What ... exactly ... does this say?

Quote
“The First Amendment is sacred,” says Mr. Schumer, “but the First Amendment is not absolute, and by making it absolute you actually make it less sacred to most Americans.”

It's not absolute?

Quote from: 1A
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

I dunno what language Mr. Schumer speaks, but in English "No" is pretty absolute.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Ned Hamford

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,075
Re: There's too much free speechifiying going on.
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2014, 02:31:04 PM »
I dunno what language Mr. Schumer speaks, but in English "No" is pretty absolute.

Was he in a fraternity?   >:D
Improbus a nullo flectitur obsequio.

fifth_column

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,705
Re: There's too much free speechifiying going on.
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2014, 02:52:53 PM »
?? HUH ??

What ... exactly ... does this say?

Quote
“The First Amendment is sacred,” says Mr. Schumer, “but the First Amendment is not absolute, and by making it absolute you actually make it less sacred to most Americans.”

It's not absolute?

I dunno what language Mr. Schumer speaks, but in English "No" is pretty absolute.



I noticed that also.  It's just the current police state version of double-speak . . .
Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will... The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress. ― Frederick Douglass

No American citizen should be willing to accept a government that uses its power against its own people.  -  Catherine Engelbrecht

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: There's too much free speechifiying going on.
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2014, 08:23:36 PM »
"Congress shall make no law" carries no more weight than "Shall not be infringed" with the current crop of politicians than any of the rest of the constituion does with Obama.

Frack 'em all.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

Sergeant Bob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,861
Re: There's too much free speechifiying going on.
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2014, 10:11:05 PM »
I heard Flight 93's target was the Capitol Building. The biggest tragedy of flight 93 was, it didn't hit it's intended target, so all those people died for nothing.
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

I already have canned butter, buying more. Canned blueberries, some pancake making dry goods and the end of the world is gonna be delicious.  -French G

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,484
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: There's too much free speechifiying going on.
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2014, 01:25:10 AM »
I'm not sure what people think it means to say that a right is absolute. I guess they think that "absolute" means you can libel someone, or spill company secrets despite a non-disclose, or carry a gun on your neighbor's property when he's expressly forbidden it. And so on. (This would be akin to the popular understanding of deregulation, in which unfettered capitalism means that businessmen are not subject to common law.  ;/)

I would insist that rights, if they are rights at all, must be absolute in the sense that they can never justifiably be violated. One of the underlying problems with our politics is the idea that rights must be "balanced" or "limited" by some other right or interest. This leads to the fallacy that it's sometimes acceptable to violate a person's rights, for good cause. Or that your rights no longer matter, if I have a right that somehow trumps yours. But the very nature of a right is that x is yours by right. It is always wrong to violate rights, because that's what they are - rights. How can anything on our human plane of existence be higher than a right? How can a right be transgressed, except by wrong?

So we find the limits of our rights not by balancing them against other people's rights, or against "compelling interests," but by understanding that our rights don't extend to our neighbor's nose (so to speak). My nose doesn't violate your rights, or take away your right to swing your fist; it was just never subject to your rights. Our rights are absolute as far they extend, and no further. 'Cause it's absolutely my nose, dangit. You can hit our own nose, because that's absolutely yours. (But this is not recommended.)

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 01:29:22 AM by fistful »
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Scout26

  • I'm a leaf on the wind.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,997
  • I spent a week in that town one night....
Re: There's too much free speechifiying going on.
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2014, 01:38:43 AM »
You need to go back and re-read what the BOR says.

The only things Chuck U. Schumer got right in that sentence were the words 'the' and 'Americans'.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 07:47:05 AM by scout26 »
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,484
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: There's too much free speechifiying going on.
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2014, 07:28:09 AM »
You need to go back and re-read what the BOR says.

The only things Chuck U. Schumer got right in that sentence were the words 'the' and 'Americans.


Were you responding to me, and if so, did you think I was agreeing with Chuck?
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,681
Re: There's too much free speechifiying going on.
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2014, 07:57:16 AM »
Were you responding to me, and if so, did you think I was agreeing with Chuck?
Your fault either way, so at this point what does it matter?

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: There's too much free speechifiying going on.
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2014, 08:21:57 AM »
I don't know what you people expect from chuck... he can't comprehend the 2nd amendment, so how could he possibly comprehend the 1st which has about 50% more words in it, many of which have more than one syllable.
 ;/
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: There's too much free speechifiying going on.
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2014, 11:44:03 AM »
Quote
Thoughts?

You don't see the difference between "Congress shall make no law..."  and private agreements, tort damages, etc  ???
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

KD5NRH

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,926
  • I'm too sexy for you people.
Re: There's too much free speechifiying going on.
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2014, 12:04:16 PM »
I heard Flight 93's target was the Capitol Building. The biggest tragedy of flight 93 was, it didn't hit it's intended target, so all those people died for nothing.

0846: first WTC impact
0903: second WTC impact
0937: Pentagon impact
1007: Flight 93 crashes, still several minutes out from DC

Even without the 41 minute unplanned delay at takeoff, I doubt the politicians would have still been hanging out in the big obvious targets by the time it got there.  Frankly, I'm surprised the folks at the Pentagon hadn't taken more precautions.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,484
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: There's too much free speechifiying going on.
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2014, 06:38:10 PM »
You don't see the difference between "Congress shall make no law..."  and private agreements, tort damages, etc  ???


I think I do, but please explain.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: There's too much free speechifiying going on.
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2014, 06:53:30 PM »

I think I do, but please explain.

Well, for one thing - neither of the latter two involve Congress.  ;)
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,484
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: There's too much free speechifiying going on.
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2014, 06:56:18 PM »
Uh, OK; I don't see how my comments led to your question. Where did I go wrong?
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: There's too much free speechifiying going on.
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2014, 08:08:13 PM »
Uh, OK; I don't see how my comments led to your question. Where did I go wrong?

Oh, the possibilities ...   =D
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: There's too much free speechifiying going on.
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2014, 09:57:29 PM »
Uh, OK; I don't see how my comments led to your question. Where did I go wrong?

I don't think APS has the storage or bandwidth for that discussion.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,341
Re: There's too much free speechifiying going on.
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2014, 03:45:23 AM »
I'm not sure what people think it means to say that a right is absolute. I guess they think that "absolute" means you can libel someone, or spill company secrets despite a non-disclose, or carry a gun on your neighbor's property when he's expressly forbidden it. And so on. (This would be akin to the popular understanding of deregulation, in which unfettered capitalism means that businessmen are not subject to common law.

...

Thoughts?

Absolute means absolute. The 1st Amendment doesn't say I can't libel or slander someone. In fact, I have every right to do so ... and the person whom I libel or slander has every right to sue me. What the amendment says is:

Quote
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, ...

The constitution governs the government, not the citizens.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Ned Hamford

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,075
Re: There's too much free speechifiying going on.
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2014, 08:50:34 AM »
I also have the right to stop inviting Hawkmoon to Hamfest (Festival of Ham) after hearing about all those bad things he said about me.   =D
Freedom to say =/= Freedom from consequences.

Fun parallel, in NY our State Constitution gives the absolute right to vote essentially to anyone who claims it, no identification for voting required here... so the whole voter fraud thing only comes into play after the vote is cast.  :shrug: harm before punishment.  I chalk it up to how serious the authors were about government restraint and how concrete they wanted the showing before the gov tossed the cuffs on someone ect.  Where we have government intervention for hypothetical harms and wrongs; well, we have seen how not even the sky is the limit. 
Improbus a nullo flectitur obsequio.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,484
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: There's too much free speechifiying going on.
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2014, 12:03:47 PM »
Absolute means absolute. The 1st Amendment doesn't say I can't libel or slander someone. In fact, I have every right to do so ... and the person whom I libel or slander has every right to sue me. What the amendment says is:


Maybe there is something I don't understand. If you sue me for $1000, and you win, isn't that supposed to mean that the $1000 is rightfully yours, and I have no rights to it? And if you sue me for libel, and you win, isn't that supposed to mean I had no right to write what I wrote?

Again, we must understand what our freedoms actually entail. A right to speak is not a right to slander, correct?
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: There's too much free speechifiying going on.
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2014, 12:28:49 PM »
You have a right to speak in the theater, but you will go to the special hell  :P
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,484
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: There's too much free speechifiying going on.
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2014, 12:37:55 PM »
You have a right to speak in the theater, but you will go to the special hell  :P

Preacher, you got a smutty mind!
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Ned Hamford

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,075
Re: There's too much free speechifiying going on.
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2014, 12:47:42 PM »
Again, we must understand what our freedoms actually entail. A right to speak is not a right to slander, correct?

It is about where the Gov intervenes, consequences, where the burden lies ect. 
Improbus a nullo flectitur obsequio.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,484
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: There's too much free speechifiying going on.
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2014, 06:34:47 PM »
It is about where the Gov intervenes, consequences, where the burden lies ect. 


I was just talking about what it means for a right to be absolute. From what I gather, some people thought I was saying that libel/slander should be criminal, and not a civil matter. That was the furthest thing from my brain, and I don't see how my rant would lead to that conclusion. I would be interested in knowing what I ought to have said differently.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife