Author Topic: Question on history of the CCW movement  (Read 1789 times)

Perd Hapley

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Question on history of the CCW movement
« on: May 04, 2014, 06:19:23 PM »
I'm curious why carry law reform seems to have begun with concealed carry, and then open carry, and not the reverse. Last millennium, when people started working on this issue, why did they seem to concentrate on concealed carry, instead of open?

Google turns up a lot of articles on the history of the CC permit, but I haven't found an answer to that specific question.

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wmenorr67

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Re: Question on history of the CCW movement
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2014, 06:21:36 PM »
Element of surprise.
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mtnbkr

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Re:
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2014, 06:37:07 PM »
Discretion and not making people nervous.

Chris

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Perd Hapley

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Re:
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2014, 07:04:03 PM »
Discretion and not making people nervous.


Are you saying the idea was that a carry reform would be more successful if low-profile, or are you saying that the people pushing it wanted to carry that way, instead of openly? Or both?

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Monkeyleg

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Re: Question on history of the CCW movement
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2014, 08:49:23 PM »
I think most people who are going to carry would prefer to carry concealed. Maybe it's not a huge majority, but I think it's a majority.

Concealed carry is also a little easier to sell to the public than open carry. The very though of someone openly carrying a handgun or long gun scares the bejeebers out of many folks. When they're told that there's millions of people carrying concealed in other states, and that in all probability they've been unknowingly around people carrying concealed, it becomes less threatening.

I  think Florida provided the impetus for the wave of new states getting shall-issue laws, and I don't think the NRA thought it was worth the time trying to fight for open carry. In fact I know that NRA-ILA felt that way, at least at one time.

mtnbkr

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Re: Question on history of the CCW movement
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2014, 08:53:07 PM »
Are you saying the idea was that a carry reform would be more successful if low-profile, or are you saying that the people pushing it wanted to carry that way, instead of openly? Or both?

Primarily the first, but the 2nd fits as well.

Chris

Tallpine

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Re: Question on history of the CCW movement
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2014, 09:11:21 PM »
I'm curious why carry law reform seems to have begun with concealed carry, and then open carry, and not the reverse. Last millennium, when people started working on this issue, why did they seem to concentrate on concealed carry, instead of open?

Google turns up a lot of articles on the history of the CC permit, but I haven't found an answer to that specific question.
Maybe because in many states you have always been able to legally open carry without a permit?  =|

(not that it was always "socially acceptable" - but it sure as heck wasn't all that unknown in western states back in the 1960s and 1970s)
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Question on history of the CCW movement
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2014, 09:28:50 PM »
Maybe because in many states you have always been able to legally open carry without a permit?  =|



I know. My state, for instance. So you might think that would be the place to start. You could just say, "States X, Y, and Z have open carry, with no wild-west crime problem. Let's bring our laws in line with the rest of the country, etc." Instead, they chose to implement a sort of law that wasn't all that common, and had to overcome the opprobrium of concealing guns ("That's something only criminals do!")

Not that I'm arguing with success. Just trying to understand.

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Tallpine

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Re: Question on history of the CCW movement
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2014, 09:35:35 PM »
I'm still trying to understand how the 2A excludes concealed carry  =|
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vaskidmark

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Re: Question on history of the CCW movement
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2014, 10:01:16 PM »
The Black Laws, Jim Crow, and other  paranoias about non-European white males.  http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=916

With open carry there was no way to regulate who carried.  Make concealed carry the "default" mode and the State gets to exert all sorts of conditions on not only who, but how and when and where.

Cramer cites the French 1751 "Black Laws" in Louisiana but misses the Virginia colonial laws regarding blacks and Indians that predated that by at least a century.

Urbanization, the Industrial Revolution and participatory politics of the 1800s (anarchists, labor unions, and a host of other undesirables) made open carry even less acceptable unless you were on the western frontier where things were the exact opposite.

I could go on, but yopu probably get the idea.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Question on history of the CCW movement
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2014, 11:14:48 PM »

With open carry there was no way to regulate who carried.  Make concealed carry the "default" mode and the State gets to exert all sorts of conditions on not only who, but how and when and where.



Actually, no. Open carry is considerably easier to regulate, as you can actually see who's carrying. Maybe the anti's just figured that concealed carry is going to happen anyway, so they might as well just go along with a plan to tax and regulate it.
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vaskidmark

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Re: Question on history of the CCW movement
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2014, 06:35:44 AM »

Actually, no. Open carry is considerably easier to regulate, as you can actually see who's carrying. Maybe the anti's just figured that concealed carry is going to happen anyway, so they might as well just go along with a plan to tax and regulate it.

Open carry as the default mode means everybody and anybody can do it - even those undesirable types.  It's not until you start passing laws about who can carry, how they can carry, and when and where they can carry that you get control - and to do that you have to do away with open carry or everybody will see that you are enforcing the law(s) against some folks and not against others when the only difference is "some folks" are not the privileged class.  That's they way it has been since after the Civil War of Northern Aggression when it became necessary to find reasons other than race to use in controlling firearms.

Else why so many states having "for good and sufficient reason" and "moral character" clauses in their laws granting the privilege of carrying concealed - often at the same time that they make the open display of a firearm a major crime?  (Yes, Texas, I am looking at you.)  Also, else why so many states are now becoming embroiled in the question of whether or not non-resident aliens qualify to be issued concealed carry permission slips?  (Something about the right of "the People" as opposed to the rights reserved only for citizens.)

The notion that "[m]aybe the anti's just figured that concealed carry is going to happen anyway, so they might as well just go along with a plan to tax and regulate it" suggests that folks were, of their own accord, going to start carrying concealed while open carry remained unregulated and unhindered.  Were thast the case even the military would have gone to concealed carry so as not to scare the peasants.  The facts remain that the way to control who could have guns and carry them about in public was (and is) to make doing so a special privilege reserved for only the right/approved group(s).

The history of the CCW movement has essentially been the removal of restrictions on who is deemed privileged enough.  The open carry movement seems to be geared more towards "We don't need no steenkin' badtches" rather than opening up who can get a badge.  Since CCW will always remain a privilege it is easier to get folks to vote for equality of the privilege than coming out and saying every Tom and Jose and Achmed can walk around with a gun "just because".

Let's keep in mind that the question is the history of the CCW movement and not the question of ccw vs open carry, or even the question of what restrictions can be imposed without actually infringing.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Question on history of the CCW movement
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2014, 08:32:28 AM »

Let's keep in mind that the question is the history of the CCW movement and not the question of ccw vs open carry

Actually, the latter is closing to what I'm really asking. That is, why has the movement to reform carry laws been a concealed carry movement, and not just a carry movement?
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Tallpine

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Re: Question on history of the CCW movement
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2014, 10:08:38 AM »
People and politics are not logical.   ;)
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Question on history of the CCW movement
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2014, 06:38:36 PM »
The notion that "[m]aybe the anti's just figured that concealed carry is going to happen anyway, so they might as well just go along with a plan to tax and regulate it" suggests that folks were, of their own accord, going to start carrying concealed while open carry remained unregulated and unhindered. 


I'm unclear on where or when "open carry remained unregulated and unhindered." Are you talking about some time in the past, or a hypothetical situation in which the concealed carry advocates had gone open carry, instead?

If the former, I think you'll agree that open carry has never been unhindered for "the undesirable types." Hence my supposition that otherwise law-abiding people have been carrying concealed, illegally.

If the latter, then, no I don't expect many otherwise law-abiding people to carry concealed (illegally), if they feel that open carry is available to them.

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