Anyone else watch the Snowden interview on NBC?

[dogmush]

Link to video

I know, NBC, but that's who did it.

I thought he came off as pretty polished.  He obviously prepared for this interview for a while. It was also pretty heavily edited, so I'm not sure what narrative NBC's editors are trying to push.

I haven't heard much about him lately, and I wonder if the journalists that still have some documents are trying to spin up some Snowden interest for a late summer/Pre-midterm story.

The more I read, and in this case hear, the more I'm falling on the side that he probably did what needed to be done. I'm certain that adversaries worldwide have used his information to become better at dodging US surveillance, I just am coming to the opinion that that damage to the nation's interests* is less then allowing unfettered information collecting of the kind that was happening to proceed.

*Note that the nation's interests and the government's interests don't necessarily coincide.

[RoadKingLarry]

Given the way whistle blowers have been more or less curcified when they bring corruption to light I can almost, sort of see the why of doing what he did the way he did it.

I do agree that our government has way overstepped the line with inel collection on US citizens.

[brimic]

Watched the first 1/2.
What amazed me was his credentials- all along the party line was that he was just some young punk 'contractor.'
Don't know what to think about the part of the interview that I saw, as stated above, heavily edited, but I hope that enough people saw it and gave it some critical thought.

[Balog]

The last couple administrations have openly said that they have the right to kidnap, torture, and kill American citizens on American soil without a trial or any oversight other than a "senior administration official" thinks it's really important to do so. I don't see how any sane person could know that and then try to whistle blow on an enormous fed.gov program of illegal wiretapping without doing it the way Snowden did.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

The last couple administrations have openly said that they have the right to kidnap, torture, and kill American citizens on American soil without a trial or any oversight other than a "senior administration official" thinks it's really important to do so. I don't see how any sane person could know that and then try to whistle blow on an enormous fed.gov program of illegal wiretapping without doing it the way Snowden did.

Could you point out the "right to kidnap torture and kill etc? I looked couldn't


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[Balog]

Could you point out the "right to kidnap torture and kill etc? I looked couldn't


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Look harder cupcake.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Perhaps I shoulda added credible source. I found it in all the expected places


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[cosine]

I'm nixing this particular thread veer. Discuss the interview. This is your only warning.

[RevDisk]

Could you point out the "right to kidnap torture and kill etc? I looked couldn't

I should hope not, the answer would be a felony, as it's classified.  

But hopefully not for long. 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals overturned the lower courts, and the US government didn't appeal to SCOTUS. However, the memorandum will be partly redacted, so it will not be the full legal justification for lethal force against US citizens without due process. No ETA on its release yet.

FYI, the courts have ruled that you can't sue the US government for damages if you're killed by a drone strike without due process or whatnot.

Edit: Sorry, was typing this when cosine released the warning. Should I start a new thread, as I think it's good info to have?

[cosine]

Yes, feel free.

[birdman]

FU

[Balog]

I still think he's a traitor.  What he revealed about anything internal could have been done through proper channels.  What he revealed (true or not) about extra-territorial aspects could be substantial.
He should burn.

Do you think those channels would have done anything about what he reported? Do you think it would have placed his life in danger?

[charby]

Do you think those channels would have done anything about what he reported? Do you think it would have placed his life in danger?

I think he is a traitor also. If the current Administration had the same press scrutiny as Nixon did when Watergate broke, it would have been on a rocket ship to the evening news.

[AJ Dual]

Do you think those channels would have done anything about what he reported? Do you think it would have placed his life in danger?

Snowden pointed out, he can get sucked into the Orwellian and Kafka-esque "Secure Federal Court System" or whatever it is called, and you get all this crazy Twilight Zone stuff thrown at you, like they give you a summons to a Fed court a thousand miles from your home city, you're immediately under a gag-order so you're not even allowed to tell anyone you're under indictment, except for a lawyer, and assuming you can even find a criminal lawyer who has decent federal bar experience in time, (the court and prosecution intentionally rush your arraignment to make this hard, (and remember, you're not allowed to tell anyone but a lawyer what's going on, so your family can't even go find one for you.) your lawyer is given redacted documents/evidence to examine, or even none at all, to try and build your defense case with.

*expletive deleted*.. that.. noise..

And now I'm struck with the same thought I have when I'm arguing with an anti-RKBA person over school shootings or shooting du-jour.

Namely: "I'M TIRED OF ARGUING WITH YOU, SO FINE... SWEET INNOCENT DEAD LITTLE KIDS FULL OF BULLET HOLES NOW AND THEN ARE WORTH MY GUN RIGHTS. AND YOU DO NOT DESERVE TO WIN THIS POLITICALLY. IF YOU DON'T LIKE GUNS, DON'T WANT TO BE AROUND GUNS, AND ARE AFRAID OF GUN VIOLENCE, DON'T TRY TO BAN MY GUNS. AND SHOULD YOU WIN POLITICALLY, I'LL HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE AND YOU'LL GET MORE GUN VIOLENCE THAN YOU CAN HANDLE, AND IT'LL BE A LOT WORSE THAN WHAT SOME NARCISSISTIC SOCIOPATH CAN DELIVER."

So in the EXACT same vein, what Snowden did is WORTH any of our agents, assets, operatives that got burned or killed. And it is WORTH any degradation in our ability to effectively surveil or do counter-intelligence against America's enemies. Stopping domestic spying against American Citizens is vastly more important than our external intelligence systems.

We are collectively under threat from our own government much, much, more so than any other nation or group on Earth. And that will probably be true until Al Quieda can invent uncontrollable nanotech "grey goo", airborne super-Flu/Ebola hybrids with 99.9% fatality rates, or has an Earth crossing Asteroid with a thruster package on it.

Further, a lot of the "extra-territorial" aspects Snowden revealed to what the NSA and various alphabet-soup agencies are doing, was being conducted against allied nations, western nations, and countries that are supposedly "free" democratic societies, full of people with the same rights we have. Either doing it without their government's knowledge, or worse, on their government's behalf as an end-run around their own laws against domestic spying.

I also think people who are in the "Snowden's a Traitor" camp are forgetting that nobody has to wake up in the morning and intend to do evil. The evil can arise incrementally in systems where everyone's patriotically doing their jobs.

Security or Freedom. You have to choose, and further, no, your choosing Security is not allowed to impact my freedom. If we can come up with an equitable solution where we can prove the NSA spies on YOU (Presumably because you've got "nothing to hide"), but not spy on ME, maybe I'm okay with that. But I'll be damned if I can look you in the eye with any sort of respect.

[brimic]

So in the EXACT same vein, what Snowden did is WORTH any of our agents, assets, operatives that got burned or killed. And it is WORTH any degradation in our ability to effectively surveil or do counter-intelligence against America's enemies.

That.
Hell, Obama just exposed the CIA station chief in Afghanistan by name in a email sent to hundreds of reporters and others. Noone is going to crucify him over that f-up. Valerie Plame who?

[Nick1911]

Excellent point, AJ.

[RevDisk]

I still think he's a traitor.  What he revealed about anything internal could have been done through proper channels.  What he revealed (true or not) about extra-territorial aspects could be substantial.
He should burn.

Not sure why you're pissed, we both know domestic operations will switch designations and are probably already back in operation. It's been continuous.  SHAMROCK, MINARET, BLARNEY, Main Core, MAINWAY, Stellar Wind, etc. All of the listed programs were intentionally aimed at the US citizenry. Not 'innocently caught up metadata', targeted at US citizenry. We also know not all the domestic ops have ended up on Wikipedia. "Deep ocean half tennis balls" should be enough of a hint.

We both know legions of good people at NSA. And we both know that each and every one of those good people knows what happens to whistleblowers who are dumb enough work within proper channels. Not exactly an option for anyone with a family and a mortgage.  We also know that while there were some very positive uses, there were more than a few times where the NSA crossed more than one line in how they used data collected on US citizens. QWEST is a public example that leaked. We both know of plenty that didn't leak.

Do you think those channels would have done anything about what he reported? Do you think it would have placed his life in danger?

Absolutely not. And no, NSA whistleblowers dumb enough to work within the system rarely committed suicide by shooting themselves twice in the side of the head with a full length shotgun. That's different folks. Generally their careers are shot, and they serve jail time if they open their traps.



Also, what AJ said. There's about zero chance of the US military pulling a coup as a unified group. Any general that has the political savvy to get to the top of the heap wouldn't want the job anyways. Federal LEOs don't have the numbers in aggregate, let alone individual agencies, to pull a coup. That leaves the NSA on the top of the heap of realistic threats to the United States. NSA is military, but not really.

That's actually a plus side. The upper echelon of the Joint Chiefs and individual services don't see the NSA/CSS as an organic part of the DoD family, per se. There's a reason why there's still a DIA and DISA. And you're not likely to have soldiers refuse to do a hostile entry, or drop arty, or drop a JDAM on the NSA. That is very, if not extremely unlikely, but a firm reminder of the limits of their power.

[fifth_column]

Regarding whistleblowers:  The O administration has used the 1917 Espionage Act to persecute prosecute whistleblowers seven times since his election.  The act has been used a total of 10 time since it was enacted in WWI.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/06/obama-abuse-espionage-act-mccarthyism

[birdman]

AJ, I'm not forgetting that.  And unlike rev, I'm not going to/can't comment in detail.  I expressed an opinion, an opinion formed by my experiences and activities.
Too many people haven't dug into this enough to form an educated opinion as to what was being done, and are drawing conclusions based on limited data. 

Most of the points raised could be solved by CHANGING THE *expletive deleted*ing LAWS.
What snowden did is quite literally the same as "I don't like the law, and I don't think the law is unconstitutional, therefore I'm going to break it, and damn the damage it causes".

What YOU are forgetting is everything he revealed was -technically- legal.  ESPECIALLY the extraterritorial aspects.  Thus, CHANGE THE DAMN LAW if you don't like it.

However, he IS responsible for breaking it.  If you want to commit civil disobedience, fine.  But accept the consequences.

[grampster]

I think it's a terrible position to be in to so distrust the hydra that the .fedgov has become that a guy that one would normally universally be branded a traitor is considered not so by over half of the people polled.  We may have had a federal government that has overstepped it's constitutional barriers throughout our history, even from the beginning.  But I think this administration's boon to the American people will be that it wakened the Sleeping Giant to the abuse of power from within.  That is if we wake up soon enough.

[Balog]

AJ, I'm not forgetting that.  And unlike rev, I'm not going to/can't comment in detail.  I expressed an opinion, an opinion formed by my experiences and activities.
Too many people haven't dug into this enough to form an educated opinion as to what was being done, and are drawing conclusions based on limited data. 

Most of the points raised could be solved by CHANGING THE *expletive deleted* LAWS.
What snowden did is quite literally the same as "I don't like the law, and I don't think the law is unconstitutional, therefore I'm going to break it, and damn the damage it causes".

What YOU are forgetting is everything he revealed was -technically- legal.  ESPECIALLY the extraterritorial aspects.  Thus, CHANGE THE DAMN LAW if you don't like it.

However, he IS responsible for breaking it.  If you want to commit civil disobedience, fine.  But accept the consequences.

First, I would dispute that what they were doing was legal even in the technical sense.
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140124/07511725976/fisa-court-waited-until-after-snowden-leaks-to-actually-explore-if-bulk-phone-record-collection-was-legal.shtml

Second, the folks who ran the Underground Railroad or otherwise defied the Fugitive Slave Act were undoubtedly violating the law, and were (gasp!) not eager to see their lives destroyed because of it. When a law is evil, used for evil purposes, contradicts the Constitution, and is being hidden from everyone including those who supposedly have over sight of it then I cannot blame anyone who violates that law.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Folks who ran that railroad didn't run away. They put it all on the line.



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[Balog]

Folks who ran that railroad didn't run away. They put it all on the line.



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They didn't turn themselves in either.

Are you really judging his actions based on the fact that he didn't want to spend the rest of his life in jail?

[fifth_column]

Folks who ran that railroad didn't run away. They put it all on the line.



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Snowden is not safe, and never will be.  He's "put it all on the line" also.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Was it illegal .
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/19/court-order-that-allowed-nsa-surveillance-is-revealed-for-first-time


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