Author Topic: Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Objectivism  (Read 12222 times)

Ned Hamford

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Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Objectivism
« on: June 01, 2014, 08:17:14 PM »
This was a very enjoyable read.
http://the-toast.net/2014/05/27/ayn-rands-harry-potter-sorcerers-stone/


 
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Tallpine

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Re: Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Objectivism
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2014, 08:26:18 PM »
High-larious  =D

I just hope the Hogwarts Express doesn't crash into another train in the middle of a tunnel  :O
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

MillCreek

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Re: Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Objectivism
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2014, 08:36:55 PM »
Professor Snape stood at the front of the room, sort of Jewishly.

Ms. Rand was of Jewish heritage but was not observant.
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Balog

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Re: Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Objectivism
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2014, 11:38:15 PM »
Ayn Rand had some amazing insights, and was unfortunately also batshit crazy. All in all it's probably a net negative that she's on our side.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

cordex

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Re: Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Objectivism
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2014, 12:25:49 AM »
Ayn Rand had some amazing insights, and was unfortunately also batshit crazy. All in all it's probably a net negative that she's on our side.
Yeah. Same with some other Libertarian greats like Rothbard. A lot of real gold mixed with some terrible radiological feces.

Balog

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Re: Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Objectivism
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2014, 02:40:34 AM »
Yeah. Same with some other Libertarian greats like Rothbard. A lot of real gold mixed with some terrible radiological feces.

It's especially vexing as she was most definitely not an Libertarian. Objectivism is an entirely separate religion/political movement.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

cordex

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Re: Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Objectivism
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2014, 07:37:45 AM »
It's especially vexing as she was most definitely not an Libertarian. Objectivism is an entirely separate religion/political movement.
The two movements are foundationally identical. There are minor distinctions, to be sure, but they are as or more similar than any two branches of Protestant Christianity.  I don't know that you could call them entirely different movements, the existence of doctrinal purists notwithstanding.

Tallpine

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Re: Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Objectivism
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2014, 10:30:16 AM »
Upon reflection, it should have been Hermione spouting the objectivist philosophy.  That would have been more fitting to the characters.

The smallest minority is the individual house elf.   =D
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

roo_ster

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Re: Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Objectivism
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2014, 11:00:26 AM »
Balog & cordex:

I think the common vein you are mining is the utopian or the forcibly consistent nature of some of the libertarian philosophies.  Humans and their workable cultures and institutions are organic, live in an historical and cultural context, and are not wholly rational & divorced from history and tradition, the way much l-tarian philosophy is.  

Regards,

roo_ster

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----G.K. Chesterton

Tallpine

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Re: Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Objectivism
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2014, 10:52:29 AM »
Balog & cordex:

I think the common vein you are mining is the utopian or the forcibly consistent nature of some of the libertarian philosophies.  Humans and their workable cultures and institutions are organic, live in an historical and cultural context, and are not wholly rational & divorced from history and tradition, the way much l-tarian philosophy is.  

Yeah, the real problem is that ninety percent of people either want to be told what to do or tell others what to do.   ;/
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

makattak

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Re: Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Objectivism
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2014, 11:29:11 AM »
Yeah, the real problem is that ninety percent of people either want to be told what to do or tell others what to do.   ;/

So, what you're saying is that libertarianism cannot ever work in practice because it ignores the man's nature?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

dogmush

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Re: Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Objectivism
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2014, 11:33:24 AM »
So, what you're saying is that libertarianism cannot ever work in practice because it ignores the man's nature?

Well yeah, but that never stopped us from trying socialism.

lee n. field

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Re: Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Objectivism
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2014, 12:16:20 PM »
So, what you're saying is that libertarianism cannot ever work in practice because it ignores the man's nature?

It is utopian.  I suspect childhood trauma.

Attempting to reconcile a libertarian/ancap critique of the state, with Romans 13, gets you to an amazingly grim place.
In thy presence is fulness of joy.
At thy right hand pleasures for evermore.

Balog

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Re: Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Objectivism
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2014, 12:21:16 PM »
It is utopian.  I suspect childhood trauma.

Attempting to reconcile a libertarian/ancap critique of the state, with Romans 13, gets you to an amazingly grim place.

Meh, I view that the same way I view the passages about children obeying their parents. I'm under no obligation to obey a state that wishes to force me into immoral actions, any more than a girl who's pedophile dad is pimping her out is obligated to be a prostitute.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

lee n. field

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Re: Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Objectivism
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2014, 01:29:16 PM »
Not an easy problem to disentangle, if you're not just trying to weasel out of Romans 13.
In thy presence is fulness of joy.
At thy right hand pleasures for evermore.

cordex

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Re: Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Objectivism
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2014, 01:47:08 PM »
I think the common vein you are mining is the utopian or the forcibly consistent nature of some of the libertarian philosophies.  Humans and their workable cultures and institutions are organic, live in an historical and cultural context, and are not wholly rational & divorced from history and tradition, the way much l-tarian philosophy is.  
I don't think I completely agree when it comes to classifying Libertarianism as utopian.  Libertarian philosophy is no more utopian than any other political philosophy.  It is true that Libertarians believe that some things that are being done today are wrong and that individuals and society as a whole would be more effectively and more morally served through the application of the Libertarian philosophy.  However, that is not to say that Libertarians necessarily believe that if they snapped their fingers and the world were Libertarian that there would be no problems any more than Republicans believe that if every office were held by a Conservative Republican that there would be no problems.  Members of every political philosophy believe that to the extent that their doctrine is implemented things will be better, more efficient or more moral.  If that were not so, why fight for their side?  Aside from rent seeking, I mean.

That said, you are spot on when it comes to tending to ignore historical and cultural context.  For instance, when Rothbard was working out his use of a woman's property rights and opposition involuntary servitude to defend abortion, he realized that the rational extension of his logic would have to allow infanticide - at least through exposure and neglect.  After all, if a fetus has no right to infringe on a woman's self-ownership by occupying her body, how could he justify requiring a mother to feed, clothe, clean, and otherwise care for an infant after it had been born?  If a neglected infant dies, Rothbard asserts, it does so because it cannot justly lay claim to the mother's time, money and effort to care for it. 

I reject that position for two reasons.  Firstly (and rationally), because both the mother and father were involved in (hopefully) voluntary decisions and choices that directly led to the conception of the child, they must therefore accept responsibility through the implicit agreement thereby entered into for caring for that offspring to some minimum standard, at least until they can find willing parents to take the child.  Secondly (and emotionally), my cultural conditioning causes me to reject with horror the idea that an live infant should be subject to fatal neglect without consequence to the responsible party.  On the other hand, if I were from another culture that is more tolerant of infanticide I would likely not have that same reaction.

To be fair to Rothbard, he also believed that infanticide wouldn't be a huge problem because in a free society, infants would be a marketable commodity and the parents of unwanted infants would have an incentive to provide for them until it could be sold to parents who do want the baby.

RevDisk

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Re: Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Objectivism
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2014, 03:32:30 PM »
Yeah, the real problem is that ninety percent of people either want to be told what to do or tell others what to do.   ;/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sFu5qXMuaJU

Replace "democracy" with "libertarian society" and the rant is even more true.

That was the hardest thing for me to learn and why I retired from military/government service as well as er, other work. Minus blowing off steam here and there, I'm retired, staying retired and tending to my metaphorical backyard.
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Scout26

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Re: Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Objectivism
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2014, 03:35:10 PM »
Yep, bring back the Orphan Trains.   I think that's a much better solution then the current .gov created mess.


Also I just want to be left alone, and not have the .gov intruding in every aspect of my life.
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for the motherland.

Balog

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Re: Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Objectivism
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2014, 03:43:42 PM »
Not an easy problem to disentangle, if you're not just trying to weasel out of Romans 13.

True, I agree. But I don't think most of those sorts of questions could ever be easy just because of their nature.

The two movements are foundationally identical. There are minor distinctions, to be sure, but they are as or more similar than any two branches of Protestant Christianity.  I don't know that you could call them entirely different movements, the existence of doctrinal purists notwithstanding.

One is a primarily political philosophy, one is a religion. They have many of the same end results politically, and they share many of the same rationales. But they really are two separate things.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Tallpine

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Re: Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Objectivism
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2014, 07:59:23 PM »
Not an easy problem to disentangle, if you're not just trying to weasel out of Romans 13.
Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side  :P

So, what you're saying is that libertarianism cannot ever work in practice because it ignores the man's nature?
So what you're saying is that because some or most people prefer to be slaves that I am obligated to be a slave  ???
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Balog

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Re: Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Objectivism
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2014, 04:28:45 PM »
Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side  :P
So what you're saying is that because some or most people prefer to be slaves that I am obligated to be a slave  ???

Are you equating any type of .gov with slavery?
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Tallpine

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Re: Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Objectivism
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2014, 09:44:10 PM »
Are you equating any type of .gov with slavery?
Are you equating libertarian thought with absolutely no government  ???
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

cordex

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Re: Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Objectivism
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2014, 11:22:59 PM »
Are you equating any type of .gov with slavery?
Of course not, only the ones that demand taxes.   :police:

Balog

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Re: Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Objectivism
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2014, 11:32:40 PM »
Are you equating libertarian thought with absolutely no government  ???

No, although your comment reads more anarchist than libertarian.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Bigjake

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Re: Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Objectivism
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2014, 11:44:29 PM »
Are you equating libertarian thought with absolutely no government  ???

Unfortunately, he's right.  Most people would rather be kept as pets,  than take any for of responsibility for themselves.  Those bunch of aholes will keep voting that the rest of us pay to feed and take care of them as long as this farce continues.

Joke is on them, eventually*

*At least I hope it is.  Given the choice, I don't want to live in a world that involves everyone brought down to the lowest common denominator.  The useless can starve, for all I care.  Up to and including the nastiness involved in cities not being able to feed their parasite populations.  Ouch.