Interesting article on new NASA research

[Balog]

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-07/31/nasa-validates-impossible-space-drive

So, my initial reaction is that the findings must be flawed in some way as this seems like such scifi jargon nonsense. However, I thought I'd throw it out to the resident smart people and see what ya'lls opinion is.

[230RN]

Aha!  So that's how come my microwave oven keeps sliding back to the wall !

But Dr. Sheldon Cooper says it's impossible.  So it's impossible.

Actually, I long ago quit thinking anything is impossible when as a kid, I heard that the Dick Tracy Wrist Radio was impossible.

And lo ! Along came transistors and Very Large Scale Integrated Circuits.

And lo ! Then came surface-mounted components.

I wish I could understand how this new propulsion mechanism might work, but I reckon I'm not alone in that.

Would like to see some kind of diagrammatic representation of it, though.

Terry

[vaskidmark]

I do not have the knowlege base to understand the theoreticals, but I do recall that "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe" had an impossible drive.

Oops!  Fact-checking http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Infinite_Improbability_Drive shows it was an Infinite Improbability Drive.

You say potato, I say tomathoe.

stay safe.

[erictank]

Okay, I R not an astrophysicist, but that's REALLY neat!

[AJ Dual]

Simple rules of thumb:

When it's impossible by Newtonian Physics, bet on Relativity.

When it's impossible by Einsteinian Physics, bet on Quantum Mechanics.

When it's impossible by Quantum Mechanics, wait longer.

[HankB]

Interesting . . . and I'd like to think they're on to something.

But when something man-made seems to defy the laws of physics as we know them today . . . I'm skeptical.

Reminds me of a guy who demonstrated a "more than 100% efficient" furnace up in Minnesota a couple of decades ago. Even the professors at U of MN were puzzled - after measuring power consumption, airflow, and input/output temperatures, the equations said it WAS more than 100% efficient.

But a student noticed that they were entering temperatures in centigrade rather than kelvin . . . once that was corrected, calculated efficiency dropped way down.

[MechAg94]

Efficiency and such is getting into conservation of energy and thermodynamics.  If it works, it would be converting electrical energy into kinetic thrust directly which we can't do supposedly.  Yep the article didn't say what the power efficiency might be.  If it works at all, it sounds like it will have physicists scratching their heads for a while.

[AJ Dual]

Seems like it's a variation of the Casimir effect in a way, except pushing on the "quantum foam" with microwaves rather than suspended plates.

[lee n. field]

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-07/31/nasa-validates-impossible-space-drive

So, my initial reaction is that the findings must be flawed in some way as this seems like such scifi jargon nonsense. However, I thought I'd throw it out to the resident smart people and see what ya'lls opinion is.

Put it in a microsattelite, loft it up to LEO.  Let it fly around hither and yon.  If it can, with no expenditure of mass, that's what we want, regardless of how it works.

[RevDisk]

Call me skeptical but interested. I wish it would be true, but...  Yea...

Still, probably deserves more testing, either way.

[230RN]

But a student noticed that they were entering temperatures in centigrade rather than kelvin . . . once that was corrected, calculated efficiency dropped way down.

Gee, that's hard not to notice, no?  I mean, mixing up yards and meters is kind of subtle, but K versus °C,  at least at room-ish temperatures?

If it works, it would be converting electrical energy into kinetic thrust directly which we can't do supposedly.

Wait, don't even light-emitting devices have some thrust?  Like flashlights.

I still want to see some kind of diagrammatic representation of the thing.

Terry

[Gewehr98]

Wouldn't it be hilarious if it's just an electromagnet pushing against the Earth's magnetic field?   

[Tallpine]

Wouldn't it be hilarious if it's just an electromagnet pushing against the Earth's magnetic field?   

IIRC, that worked for Dick Tracy 

[lee n. field]

Wouldn't it be hilarious if it's just an electromagnet pushing against the Earth's magnetic field?   

Would still be useful in LEO.

[birdman]

Would still be useful in LEO.

And unlike this, already tested (electrodynamic tethers).

The problem I have with this is simple.
They built a control device along with the experimental device.  The control device had a geometry that should have negated the thrust, allowing them to determine external effects.
The control device manifested thrust in the same fashion the experimental device did.

That my friends is a null hypothesis, and means you can't draw ANY conclusions from the experimemt.

Did NASA suddenly forget the scientific method?

[230RN]

[mtnbkr]

Seems appropriate:



Chris

[Balog]

And unlike this, already tested (electrodynamic tethers).

The problem I have with this is simple.
They built a control device along with the experimental device.  The control device had a geometry that should have negated the thrust, allowing them to determine external effects.
The control device manifested thrust in the same fashion the experimental device did.

That my friends is a null hypothesis, and means you can't draw ANY conclusions from the experimemt.

Did NASA suddenly forget the scientific method?

I guess all that Muslim outreach they've been doing has resulted in a somewhat more Inshallah approach to testing.

[AJ Dual]

Holy crap... Apparently NASA has reconfigured the test in a vacuum chamber and is now getting roughly twelve kilonewtons out of it. 

http://www.nasa.gov/pubserver12213/jpl-whitepapers/abstracts/published/anomalous-microwave-thrust-resonance-chamber-properties-round2.css

[RevDisk]

 

[230RN]

Holy crap... Apparently NASA has reconfigured the test in a vacuum chamber and is now getting roughly twelve kilonewtons out of it.  

http://www.nasa.gov/pubserver12213/jpl-whitepapers/abstracts/published/anomalous-microwave-thrust-resonance-chamber-properties-round2.css

Thrust from outgassing of whatever the hell they're putting the power into?  

(I'll also go along with the thrust against the earth's magnetic field, as someone mentioned, which is what I thought, too.)

Artie Fakt, 230RN

[TechMan]

Thrust from outgassing of whatever the hell they're putting 12kW into?  Anything will outgas from the heat of putting 12kW into it.

(I'll also go along with the thrust against the earth's magnetic field, as someone mentioned, which is what I thought, too.)

Artie Fakt, 230RN

Click the link in AJ's post.

[lee n. field]

Holy crap... Apparently NASA has reconfigured the test in a vacuum chamber and is now getting roughly twelve kilonewtons out of it. 

http://www.nasa.gov/pubserver12213/jpl-whitepapers/abstracts/published/anomalous-microwave-thrust-resonance-chamber-properties-round2.css

(yeah, I looked at AJ's linked image)

[Balog]

Another updated on article on this system.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2015/02/more-emdrive-experiment-information.html?m=1

[Scout26]

Paging birdman.  birdman to the white courtesy phone please...



To quote Malcom Reynolds:


"I need that in Captain Dummy talk."