How to protect myself in a transaction?

[Monkeyleg]

I mentioned in another thread that I was trying to find a particular collectible guitar, a reproduction of one made for Stevie Ray Vaughan.

A few weeks ago I had contacted the president of the SRV fan club, and author of several books on SRV. He has owned and sold several SRV reproduction guitars.

In our last email exchange, he said he could get me one of the signed and dated models. He emailed me tonight to say that he would need to get payment in full from me, and that he would give the custom guitar maker 1/2, and he would hold the other half until it's done and shipped to me.

I've been trying to contact the custom guitar maker directly, but he hasn't returned my calls or emails. After this email tonight, I suspect that the maker and the SRV author may have an agreement whereby the author gets a cut, and that's why the maker didn't return calls or emails. It would also likely mean I couldn't get to work with him directly and bypass the author.

The price isn't cheap ($6000), but that's far less than what I've seen the signed models going for.

I have to think about this long and hard. What I'm trying to figure out is how to protect the money paid to the author so I'm not left holding nothing.

Any suggestions?

[Fitz]

Get the fender signature model. I would be VERY leery of paying 6k for a reproduction by some random builder.

[onions!]

Tell the broker that you want to deal directly with the owner.
He can collect his fee from the seller.
I wouldn't trust a stranger to hold $30 for me,let alone $3000.Sounds kinda hinky.
So does buying a custom guitar from a luthier you don't know thru a broker you also don't know.
Or,set up a real escrow account that'll pay everyone when you're happy.

Or,wait for another one to pop up.<I like this one,YMMV.

[Monkeyleg]

Fitz, the builder is Jim Hamilton, the same luthier who made Stevie Ray Vaughan's "Main" in 1984. The guitar was commissioned by Billy Gibbons of ZZ Top in 1979 as a gift to Vaughan, and was given to him in April 1984. Hamilton then made some reproductions of the guitar in the late 1990's and through the mid 2000's. He made some marked "20th anniversary" in 2004. This would be the 30th anniversary.

The Fender signature model doesn't have any value as a collectible. Fender made a limited edition run 100 of the SRV "Lenny" guitars, which sold for $17,000 new and now are worth $50K+.

This is what Hamilton's reproduction looks like.

[grampster]

Doesn't Paypal give you some sort of protection if you use Paypal to pay for the instrument?

[Monkeyleg]

Doesn't Paypal give you some sort of protection if you use Paypal to pay for the instrument?

Yes. I'm not liking this suggested arrangement.  The headstock should be signed, dated, numbered and, when applicable, have the anniversary year (20th, 30th, etc) on it. The author is saying that the headstock will be signed, but he can't make "those kinds of demands" on the maker for date and number.

I'm going to continue to try to reach the luthier (maker) directly. If not, I'll continue to search for an existing model. If the author comes up with more favorable terms, I'll reconsider.

[lupinus]

I'd toss the offer aside. Sounds like a good way for him to line his own pocket.

[vaskidmark]

Google "escrow service".

You send the $ to the escrow service.  They notify the seller the money is on deposit.

The seller sends the item to you.  You notify the escrow service that the transaction is satisfactorily completed and they send the money to the seller.  Or you notify the escrow service that there is a glitch and the escrow service initiates whatever dispute resolution system they have in their contract with the two of you.

For an item such as you are interested in, I would engage the services of a reputable appraiser who can verify the authenticity of the item and describe the condition.

The escrow service should be able to assist you in setting up delivery and inspection so that there are no questions of how or when that scratch/ding/dent/crack appeared - before or after you opened the container.

AVOID PayPal's dispute resolution service like the plague.  Sellers seem to love it and buyers seem to hate it.  I wonder why.

stay safe.

[Hawkmoon]

Any suggestions?

Yep. Find an independent escrow agent, acceptable to buyer and seller, to hold the money until the guitar has been delivered, inspected, and accepted by you. If the seller isn't willing to have the money (ALL the money, not half) held in escrow, then the deal stinks and you should walk away.

Correction: RUN away.

[freakazoid]

Fender made a limited edition run 100 of the SRV "Lenny" guitars, which sold for $17,000 new and now are worth $50K+.

[Fitz]

Fitz, the builder is Jim Hamilton, the same luthier who made Stevie Ray Vaughan's "Main" in 1984. The guitar was commissioned by Billy Gibbons of ZZ Top in 1979 as a gift to Vaughan, and was given to him in April 1984. Hamilton then made some reproductions of the guitar in the late 1990's and through the mid 2000's. He made some marked "20th anniversary" in 2004. This would be the 30th anniversary.

The Fender signature model doesn't have any value as a collectible. Fender made a limited edition run 100 of the SRV "Lenny" guitars, which sold for $17,000 new and now are worth $50K+.

This is what Hamilton's reproduction looks like.

In that case, i'd avoid doing it until you can get with the builder directly.

[Battle Monkey of Zardoz]

Being burned before in a high $$ transaction, I say listen to that voice you have telling you something is just not right. I wish I had. Spidey sense is never wrong.

[Monkeyleg]

Being burned before in a high $$ transaction, I say listen to that voice you have telling you something is just not right. I wish I had. Spidey sense is never wrong.

Yeah. I deal with fraud all week long, with people trying to use stolen credit cards or buy with their legitimate cards but then dispute the charge with the card company after they have the product in their hands.

The author has a good reputation for his work in detailing Vaughan's life and work. He's not Bank of America, though, so I don't know why I should trust him as an escrow agent. If, as he seems to imply, it's a good idea to only give the maker half up front and half at the end, what's he saying about the maker?

The past two to three weeks have been a crash course in the history of this guitar, and I've learned a lot about it. There's three variations that I've found: the models made by Jim Hamilton, which are signed, numbered and dated, and which have said SRV and in a couple of cases "20th anniversary" or "21st anniversary"; models possibly made by Jim Hamilton and others, which have a number on them that is not hand-written; and the models made by his ex-partner, which Jim Hamilton was not involved with at all, and which are not numbered or dated or signed by anyone. All three models come with a certificate of authenticity. The ones made by Jim Hamilton himself have his signature on a separate line on the certificate.

What the author is suggesting is a model that wouldn't be like any of the above. It would have Hamilton's signature only. I asked him twice about the certificate, but he didn't answer.

I'll try to reach Jim Hamilton again today. If I can't speak with him, then I would want to get a contract written up that specifies what will be included, who will be paid what and when. And I would use an independent escrow service.

I can get an unplayed, as-new model that's not signed but is numbered with a certificate for less than $4000.

[Brad Johnson]

Tell the broker that you want to deal directly with the owner.
He can collect his fee from the seller.
I wouldn't trust a stranger to hold $30 for me,let alone $3000.Sounds kinda hinky.
So does buying a custom guitar from a luthier you don't know thru a broker you also don't know.
Or,set up a real escrow account that'll pay everyone when you're happy.

This.  Either pay the luthier directly and let the broker collect from them, or use and independent escrow agent.

Brad

[KD5NRH]

The ones made by Jim Hamilton himself have his signature on a separate line on the certificate.

You know, for $2,500 I can get you a guitar that doesn't even need the documentation;  just by looking at it you can tell that it's an authentic guitar, and that it was never played by SRV, Clapton, BB King or even Slash.

[Monkeyleg]

You know, for $2,500 I can get you a guitar that doesn't even need the documentation;  just by looking at it you can tell that it's an authentic guitar, and that it was never played by SRV, Clapton, BB King or even Slash.

I have four of those.

[Brad Johnson]

I have a genuine WWI AR15, owned by Abraham Lincoln, used in the making of Gone With The Wind, and personally hand engraved by John Moses Browning.  I'll let it go cheap for $50,000.

Brad

[Monkeyleg]

I'll trade you, Brad. How about a SRV guitar? It says "Fnder" on the head stock, and has a certificate signed by Xrmpo Flmpez.

[Fitz]

6,000 dollars could buy you a really amazing custom Carvin CT with a quilt top, and a large amount of cocaine.


Just sayin

[Monkeyleg]

6,000 dollars could buy you a really amazing custom Carvin CT with a quilt top, and a large amount of cocaine.


Just sayin

I know. It could also buy a decent used motorcycle, a 2nd Generation Colt SAA, or any number of other things. I just fell in love with this guitar. It looks much better in person. The figuring in the curly maple wood is amazing, and the fit and finish are just perfect. The inlay in the fret board is mother of pearl, and is flawless. It has a neck-through design which is really cool. Given the way Hamilton and his former partner marketed the guitars, they won't ever reach the $50K mark like the Fenders did, but they'll still be collectible.

I may just say *expletive deleted*ck it and get the one for $4000. It's as new (the pick guard still has the shrink wrap on it). The question is whether Hamilton's signature will ever be worth the $2000 price differential.

My guess is that, if I could get Hamilton on the phone without the author ever having gotten into the mix, I could get the guitar, signed and all, for $5000 or less.

[onions!]

I know. It could also buy a decent used motorcycle, a 2nd Generation Colt SAA, or any number of other things. I just fell in love with this guitar. It looks much better in person. The figuring in the curly maple wood is amazing, and the fit and finish are just perfect. The inlay in the fret board is mother of pearl, and is flawless. It has a neck-through design which is really cool. Given the way Hamilton and his former partner marketed the guitars, they won't ever reach the $50K mark like the Fenders did, but they'll still be collectible.

I may just say *expletive deleted* it and get the one for $4000. It's as new (the pick guard still has the shrink wrap on it). The question is whether Hamilton's signature will ever be worth the $2000 price differential.

My guess is that, if I could get Hamilton on the phone without the author ever having gotten into the mix, I could get the guitar, signed and all, for $5000 or less.

Would he sign the $4000 one?

[KD5NRH]

For $1000 per item plus round trip shipping, I'll sign all your guitars.

[Scout26]

MAL: It wasn't a bad idea, Wash, but eliminating the middleman is never as simple as it sounds.

Wash looks surprised - looks to Zoe, who looks busted.

WASH:So you heard about my -

MAL:'Bout 50% of the human race is middlemen, and they don't take kindly to being eliminated. This quadrant, we play nice. Got enemies enough as it is.

Perhaps the luthier simply doesn't want to deal with business side of the business.  (He is a craftsman, and maybe all he wants to do is build guitars)  so he makes guitars and has deals or contracts with various folks to handle the business/marketing side for him.  President of the SRV fan club being one.  Which is probably why Mr. Hamilton won't contact or deal with you.  (Breach of Contract cases being very ugly in court.)  

Half down and half upon completion is the typical arrangement for any type of construction work (the first half being used to buy the materials, the second to pay wages and profit).   However, in this instance you are asking for a custom built guitar.  Something that may or may not be easy to for the builder and his agent to recoup their costs/expenses should you decide not to pay for it, upon completion.  

And yes, I'm sure the agent is getting a cut (Probably not 1/2 but maybe 1/4).  Much as you do from your website.  

Perhaps he can give you references, other people that have ordered guitars through him and you can contact them?  

[Monkeyleg]

Scout, I've read a couple of comments from people on forums who've said that Hamilton told them he'd build an SRV model for $4500. This was a few years ago, so I'm adding some for inflation.

It may be that he doesn't want to deal with the business. I don't know. He's one of those types who move from state to state all the time, and don't make good business decisions.

I'd be fine with the author's deal (well, not fine, but I'd do it) if the escrow was structured more safely, and if he could guarantee that I would get a signed certificate of authenticity,  Hamilton's signature, the date, and a line saying "SRV 30th anniversary". The number of the model isn't 100% necessary. For the author to say that he can't make demands like that on Hamilton is bull. It's $5000 or so for Hamilton. It's not like he's violating some code of honor by doing what he's done before.

As for signing the $4000 one, he never did that, as they weren't 100% his own work.

[vaskidmark]

....

   However, in this instance you are asking for a custom built guitar.  Something that may or may not be easy to for the builder and his agent to recoup their costs/expenses should you decide not to pay for it, upon completion.  

....  

It's a custom guitar that's already made.  The build has already been completed.  Check out the picture of it.  

stay safe.