Mars Hill church in turmoil

[MillCreek]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/23/us/mark-driscoll-is-being-urged-to-leave-mars-hill-church.html?_r=0

http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepolitics/2014/08/15/mark-driscoll-removed-as-closing-speaker-at-big-church-conference/#25601101=0

http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepolitics/2014/08/20/mark-driscoll-returns-sunday-mars-hill-churchgoers-told-bring-bibles/


Mars Hill church is a major player in the PNW church scene, and has affiliations and other churches in other areas of the country.  The founder of the church, Mark Driscoll, has shot to fame on two primary elements of his theology: predestination, or the belief that God has already chosen those who will be saved; and that men and only men are the leaders of the church and home, and women are in support roles.   His churches are not big on social justice or service to the community.

In the past, any criticism of his churches or teachings were dismissed as being from liberals.  In recent months, his fellow conservative or evangelical Christians are now joining the critical chorus.  He has been disinvited from many meetings and conventions and calls for his resignation are growing stronger.  It will be interesting to see what happens to him.

[Tallpine]

This was God's plan all along 

[lee n. field]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/23/us/mark-driscoll-is-being-urged-to-leave-mars-hill-church.html?_r=0

http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepolitics/2014/08/15/mark-driscoll-removed-as-closing-speaker-at-big-church-conference/#25601101=0

http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepolitics/2014/08/20/mark-driscoll-returns-sunday-mars-hill-churchgoers-told-bring-bibles/


Mars Hill church is a major player in the PNW church scene, and has affiliations and other churches in other areas of the country.  The founder of the church, Mark Driscoll, has shot to fame on two primary elements of his theology: predestination, or the belief that God has already chosen those who will be saved; and that men and only men are the leaders of the church and home, and women are in support roles.   His churches are not big on social justice or service to the community.

In the past, any criticism of his churches or teachings were dismissed as being from liberals.  In recent months, his fellow conservative or evangelical Christians are now joining the critical chorus.  He has been disinvited from many meetings and conventions and calls for his resignation are growing stronger.  It will be interesting to see what happens to him.

Been following it.

Criticism from "fellow conservative or evangelical Christians" has been going on for a lot longer than "recent months".  There's just a lot more coming to a head right now.

The founder of the church, Mark Driscoll, has shot to fame on two primary elements of his theology: predestination, or the belief that God has already chosen those who will be saved; and that men and only men are the leaders of the church and home, and women are in support roles.  

"Predestination" is not his problem, nor at all unique to him.  Ditto complementarianism.

Yes, it will be interesting.

[Perd Hapley]

Yeah, predestination is standard fare in a lot of churches, and nothing that will make one famous these days. Male leadership is also a fairly common teaching,* but I guess it is notable when a large, high-profile church will remain faithful to that particular view. If Mars Hill is seen as emergent/emerging, as the article suggests, that would turn a lot of conservatives right off, no matter what the church actually taught or did. I don't know anything about the church. Maybe lee could tell us whether or not it deserves that label.

 His churches are not big on social justice...

   "Social justice" is a term used almost exclusively by the left, so even if they ran the biggest soup kitchen and legal aid office in the country, they wouldn't necessarily be big on "social justice."

Just as a point of interest, Mars Hill is named for an episode in which the Apostle Paul evangelized to the pagan philosophers that gathered on Athens' Mars Hill.


*Complementarianism also has good Biblical support, although there is room for various interpretations on the role of women in the church, etc.

[TommyGunn]

I thought the concept of predestination had been eschewed from Christianity several hundred years ago ... 

[Perd Hapley]

I thought the concept of predestination had been eschewed from Christianity several hundred years ago ... 

It was very important to the teachings of John Calvin a few hundred years ago, and has been a bedrock doctrine of many denominations since that time. Presbyterians, "Reformed" denominations, many Baptist groups, and the list goes on.

[TommyGunn]

It was very important to the teachings of John Calvin a few hundred years ago, and has been a bedrock doctrine of many denominations since that time. Presbyterians, "Reformed" denominations, many Baptist groups, and the list goes on.

Ooooookaaay.... but it never made any sense to me.

[roo_ster]

Yeah, predestination is standard fare in a lot of churches, and nothing that will make one famous these days. Male leadership is also a fairly common teaching,* but I guess it is notable when a large, high-profile church will remain faithful to that particular view. If Mars Hill is seen as emergent/emerging, as the article suggests, that would turn a lot of conservatives right off, no matter what the church actually taught or did. I don't know anything about the church. Maybe lee could tell us whether or not it deserves that label.

 "Social justice" is a term used almost exclusively by the left, so even if they ran the biggest soup kitchen and legal aid office in the country, they wouldn't necessarily be big on "social justice."

Just as a point of interest, Mars Hill is named for an episode in which the Apostle Paul evangelized to the pagan philosophers that gathered on Athens' Mars Hill.


*Complementarianism also has good Biblical support, although there is room for various interpretations on the role of women in the church, etc.

Quote from: MillCreek on Today at 16:43:44

His churches are not big on social justice...

First Baptist Dallas has run the largest and oldest homeless shelter in Dallas for decades.  When the city of Dallas built a shelter, it was all over the news and trumpeted high and low.  Despite the fact it services about half as many as FBD's.  Never hear anything about FBD's shelter in the MSM.  Fawning praise of the city's...and compassion & understanding when drunks steal from women or rough up kids.  Absopositively NOT the fault of the shelter, nosiree.

FBD also started the Baylor hospital system, a pregnancy center, runs scholarship schools in rough neighborhoods, drug rehab programs, etc.etc.

But, FBD's pastor won't sign on to the LGBT & pseudo marriage freakshow so he is a "hater" and FBD's congregation is "not big on social justice" either.

Lots of the other churches do similar things, usually commensurate with their size.


FTR: Not a member of FBD.  


Also, plenty of theologically conservative christians & denoms have been all over this from the get-go.  Driscoll has been a proponent of the megachurch "seeker sensitive" approach, which has gotten plenty of criticism.

[lee n. field]

I thought the concept of predestination had been eschewed from Christianity several hundred years ago ... 

You thought wrong.

[roo_ster]

You thought wrong.

You can say that again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_%28Calvinism%29#Double_predestination

[Perd Hapley]

Ooooookaaay.... but it never made any sense to me.

You're not of the elect.  

FWIW, I agree with the Bible that God predestined those He foreknew. And He foreknew who would choose salvation.  . (So I'm not of the elect, either.)

[TommyGunn]

You thought wrong.

Yea ... I sorta did figure that out ...... 

[zahc]

All I know about Driscoll is that when I was staying in Montana the locals I was hanging out with loved to hate Driscoll, but it was because of his antinomianism

[French G.]

This was God's plan all along 

What you did there, I foresaw that.

[lee n. field]

A couple data points:

A 2010 interview with Mr. Driscoll, in which he says

I wanted to do all I could to ensure doctrinal fidelity and clarity for our church. As the tree grows and the fruit increases, the roots need to sink deep as well. So, when our attendance was at about six thousand people a few years ago, we did something unprecedented. We canceled out the membership of everyone in our church and I preached the Doctrine series for thirteen weeks. Each sermon was well over an hour and included me answering text-messaged questions from our people.

Those who made it through the entire series were interviewed, and those who evidenced true faith in Christ and signed our membership covenant were installed as new members.

Note that comments are gone.  I thought the thing with the cancelled membership was weird, and a lot of other people did too.  A hundred or more comments accumulated, mostly about that, before the whole thing was yanked.  (I'd commented, and checked off a box to email me new comments, so I have a bunch of them.)

A recent piece reveals some details Driscoll did not mention, and puts it in context with some behind the scenes political wrangling:

“I am all about blessed subtraction,” Driscoll told a team of pastors and potential pastors the morning after Petry and Meyer were fired. “There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus, and by God’s grace it’ll be a mountain by the time we’re done. You either get on the bus or get run over by the bus. Those are the options… yesterday we fired two elders for the first time in the history of Mars Hill—last night. They’re off the bus, under the bus. They were off mission, so now they’re unemployed. This will be the defining issue as to whether or not you succeed or fail. I’ve read enough of the New Testament to know that occasionally Paul puts somebody in the wood chipper. You know?” (The audio of this talk is available on Petry’s website, joyfulexiles.com.)

Agathos survived, but the episode was eye-opening for many church insiders, and some of them quietly began to back away. After the dustup, Driscoll canceled the entire congregation’s memberships and told them they had to reapply with a special addendum specifically agreeing to the new bylaws he was proposing. He’d seen how inconvenient dissent could be. Petry and Smith say roughly 1,000 of the 1,600 members refused to re-up, but, even as Mars Hill hemorrhaged its old guard membership, new people kept arriving, drawn by Driscoll’s flash but ignorant of what he had just done to consolidate his power.

So, a "make it up as you go" ecclesiology, with an abrupt change in polity in the mid 2000s.

The audio of the "pile of dead bodies" talk is not difficult to find.

[Perd Hapley]

“I am all about blessed subtraction,” Driscoll told a team of pastors and potential pastors the morning after Petry and Meyer were fired. “There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus, and by God’s grace it’ll be a mountain by the time we’re done. You either get on the bus or get run over by the bus. Those are the options… yesterday we fired two elders for the first time in the history of Mars Hill—last night. They’re off the bus, under the bus. They were off mission, so now they’re unemployed. This will be the defining issue as to whether or not you succeed or fail. I’ve read enough of the New Testament to know that occasionally Paul puts somebody in the wood chipper. You know?”

I see his Bible has but one Corinthian letter.   

[Tallpine]

I find the whole thing mildly amusing 

[Stand_watie]

Yea ... I sorta did figure that out ...... 

T.U.L.I.P.

3 minute explainer from George C. Scott

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/returntorome/2014/01/george-c-scott-explains-calvinism/

[Ron]

Calvinism at its very root denies free will.

So does does the block universe view of time/reality.

I find both philosophies fatalistic and wanting regarding the actual nuts and bolts of living life.

[Hawkmoon]

The founder of the church, Mark Driscoll, has shot to fame on two primary elements of his theology: predestination, or the belief that God has already chosen those who will be saved; and that men and only men are the leaders of the church and home, and women are in support roles.

That's an interesting view of what predestination means, and the first time I have ever encountered it. Predestination has always been explained to me as meaning that God has pre-determined for us the major events in our lives, in order to ensure that we have proper opportunities to learn life's lessons. In this view of predestination, who gets saved is absolutely NOT predestined. Our salvation is determined by how we respond to the pre-ordained major events in our lives.

[Balog]

It's a sad affair. Driscoll has long had a target on his back from the liberal wing because he refuses to compromise doctrinally on things like the sinfulness of homosexuality and complementarianism. The conservative wing has never liked him because he doesn't wear a suit, drinks alcohol, and doesn't conform to the cultural (not Biblical) standards of what they think a pastor should look like. They've had to grudgingly accept him because his theology is generally solid, but they've never liked him and have imho always been on the lookout for reasons to turn in him.

They have a strong system to help addicts and those struggling with sexual immorality in place in the church, and started a group that rescues women who've been forced into sexual slavery and trafficked. I believe they support a lot of the homeless ministries in the area. I guess that's not "social justice" enough for the liberals.

Whoever said MHC was one of the "seeker sensitive" lot could not be more wrong. Unless you think having loud worship music means you're seeker sensitive. Of course the various Orthodox denominations probably think your hymns are too modern and seeker sensitive so...

I don't go to Mars Hill, but I have a lot of friends who do and I've seen the tremendous difference they have made. Driscoll certainly isn't perfect and he's always been very upfront about his failings. It's sad to see so many people turning on him instead of drawing alongside to help. A lot of jealousy and placing cultural norms as equivalent to Biblical standards imho. 

[Ron]

The problem with modern (or even ancient) churches, especially mega churches is that they are human institutions run by fallible human beings. They are corporations and are run like corporations. Most of the successful mega churches are run by very driven people who exhibit all the positive and negative traits we see in those who run successful corporations throughout the economic market. Personally I question how much of their success is the moving of Gods spirit vs a great business plan or formula for growth.

Once you have a framework, a corporate structure to administer 'good works' it doesn't really matter what the spiritual or moral condition of the individuals are you plug into the various positions. The machine will continue to run regardless. It might run better with committed and devout individuals but in a human institution that isn't a necessity.  

Now following Jesus is a spiritual, individual matter of the heart that governs how one relates to other individuals as well as God. I'm not sure how you can institutionalize something so metaphysical without losing the true essence.


    

[Tallpine]

That's an interesting view of what predestination means, and the first time I have ever encountered it. Predestination has always been explained to me as meaning that God has pre-determined for us the major events in our lives, in order to ensure that we have proper opportunities to learn life's lessons. In this view of predestination, who gets saved is absolutely NOT predestined. Our salvation is determined by how we respond to the pre-ordained major events in our lives.

Your view is not at all correct.  The Calvinist/Reformed view is that man is so depraved that he cannot by himself choose salvation, and also that there is nothing better/smarter in a person for having chosen to believe.  It is entirely God's work on all accounts.

I may have "escaped" but I still know my theology 

[lupinus]

My understanding was always that the predestined were predestined and those who were not were not. But then I've never been a member of a church that teaches it.

As for mega churches (not to be confused with churches that are simply really big), I've never encountered one that I've cared for. Most of them grow through gravitas of the pastor or by sticking to a sweet feel good message and rock concerts every Sunday. It's great that they get people out to worship, on that point and that point alone IMO they are good, but they often set people up with some pretty shakey theology.

[grampster]

As a believer in Christ, I abandoned "organized religion" 30 years ago for many of the reasons being expressed in this thread.  
 

There is my sermon for you for today, fellow campers.