causes of the American War Between the States

[CAnnoneer]

I would submit that if you can't find support for it in the Christian Bible, it can hardly be part of your "Christian religious beliefs".  A beleif, yes.  Christian, no.

Yes and no. It depends on how we define christianity. Is it a members' club that changes policies to fit the situation, or is it scripture-set dogmatic cult? The first step to clarity is for christians to decide which they are.

In the former case, they might just as well throw away the bible and rewrite fluid bylaws every few years. In the latter case, they will be more susceptible to logic attacks, but also more self-consistent. I really wish they make up their mind and let us know. This "interpretation" business is the biggest cop-out ever, and logically equivalent to leftists "interpreting" our laws to suit their desires.

As an aside, it is the "interpretation" business that makes me intellectually despise large sections of organized christianity, the papacy in particular. I'd still disagree with them but respect them nonetheless if they just came out and said "We know our views may not make practical, logical, or phenomenological sense, but we do not need them to, because our first priority in all things is our code of ethics."

[richyoung]

So stipulated - whilst a Baptist myself, I have little tolerence for those who "find" in the Bible support for what are, in fact, their personal prejudices.  Dancing, alcohol, etc.  The Bible is a lot like the Constitution - plain language intended to be read and understood by everyone - no need for "emminations" or "penumbras".

[The Rabbi]

To restate, the CURRENT position of the United States is:
Slavery is wrong, UNLESS:

You want to start playing professional sports.
We need you to go fight a war, and are unwilling to pay you enough salary and benefits for you to volunteer.
You are already in the military, but want to quit.
You broke a law, and aren't rich enough to wiggle out of it.

Or additional situations:

You sign a contract to work under certain conditions.
You sign a contract to buy or sell a house.
You agree to a recording contract with a record label.
You get married.
You have children.

Gee, those things cover probably 90% of the people in America.  I guess we really are all slaves.

[richyoung]

Or additional situations:

You sign a contract to work under certain conditions.

Nothing slavery-like about that - signing the contract is voluntary, unlike military and sports drafts.  Plus they don't whip you or send you to Leavenworth for breaking it.  Lastly, enforcing contracts is a specific, delegated, legitimate function of federal government under the Constitution.

You sign a contract to buy or sell a house.

Again, voluntary.  See the difference betqeen that, and your draft number coming up?

You agree to a recording contract with a record label.

Voluntary and contract law again...

You get married.
You have children.

Again, there is a certain elemnet of voluntary action in all of those....

Gee, those things cover probably 90% of the people in America.  I guess we really are all slaves.

You're right...we all are. But ot for the reasons you cite.  The reason we are all slaves:

1.  Taxation.  You know, even some slaves got paid wages - at what rate of taxation have we made taxpayers slaves?  100%, for certain.  99%?  95%  80%?  I would submit that anyting over 30% is slavery - your number may differ.  The average American taxpayer loses 50% of his income to the government in the form of taxes, fees, "registrations", "licenses", permits, etc.  Thats perilously close to slavery in my book, especially since there is NO CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORIZATION to take money from a taxpayer for the sole purpose of giving it away to someone else - so-called "transfer payments".
2,  The recent expansion and abuse of eminent domain.  Slaves couldn't own property - and now, we really don't own property, either - at least, not if a rich, plitically connected person or corporation wants it...
3.  Same reason as #2, except its the government doing the taking - either outright, or by "regulating" you out of business, due to "endangered species", or "wetlands", or taking previously held water rights, or zoning, or...

[Perd Hapley]

I can't believe how they're pulling burly young men off the street to compete in football.  I hope they never get me - I might make a few million dollars and retire in style.

[richyoung]

I can't believe how they're pulling burly young men off the street to compete in football.  I hope they never get me - I might make a few million dollars and retire in style.

Where do you work now?  Did they "draft" you - were you required to work ONLY for them, or not at all?  For how many years?

[The Rabbi]

I can't believe how they're pulling burly young men off the street to compete in football.  I hope they never get me - I might make a few million dollars and retire in style.

Where do you work now?  Did they "draft" you - were you required to work ONLY for them, or not at all?  For how many years?

I can about guarantee that wherever he is working now he is required to work only for them.  In any case, comparing football players who get paid millions of dollars a year to unpaid slaves is absurd.

[CAnnoneer]

 In any case, comparing football players who get paid millions of dollars a year to unpaid slaves is absurd.

It's a loss of freedom no matter how much you get paid in the process.  And the loss of freedom is the argument in that case.

[The Rabbi]

 In any case, comparing football players who get paid millions of dollars a year to unpaid slaves is absurd.

It's a loss of freedom no matter how much you get paid in the process.  And the loss of freedom is the argument in that case.

Getting married is a loss of freedom.  Taking a job is a loss of freedom.  Starting a business is a loss of freedom.  Virtually everything worth doing entails a loss of freedom.  It is a meaningless standard.

[280plus]

Yes, we're all slaves to the almighty dollar. So what else is new?

[CAnnoneer]

Getting married is a loss of freedom.  Taking a job is a loss of freedom.  Starting a business is a loss of freedom.  Virtually everything worth doing entails a loss of freedom.  It is a meaningless standard.

Voluntary surrender of freedom in exchange for other benefits is not equivalent to loss of freedom by force.

[The Rabbi]

Getting married is a loss of freedom.  Taking a job is a loss of freedom.  Starting a business is a loss of freedom.  Virtually everything worth doing entails a loss of freedom.  It is a meaningless standard.

Voluntary surrender of freedom in exchange for other benefits is not equivalent to loss of freedom by force.

Yes.  Exactly the point.  You have stated more succinctly than I could why chattel slavery is not comparable to:
the draft,
Prison
Playing football for the NFL.

[richyoung]

I can't believe how they're pulling burly young men off the street to compete in football.  I hope they never get me - I might make a few million dollars and retire in style.

Where do you work now?  Did they "draft" you - were you required to work ONLY for them, or not at all?  For how many years?

I can about guarantee that wherever he is working now he is required to work only for them.

I can about guarantee you that he is FREE to run a home-based business, or deliver pizzas, or sell stuff on E-bay on his own time.  He will only be prohibited from competing with his employer - and maybe not even that - depending on what he does and where.

In any case, comparing football players who get paid millions of dollars a year to unpaid slaves is absurd.

Only to oyu.  I "can about guarantee" that everyone else understands that being told WHO you can work for, being told thta if you don;t work for them you don't work at all, that you can't quit, is an  aspect of slavery.

[The Rabbi]

You dont think football players can sell stuff on ebay or deliver pizzas in their spare time?  And what about endorsements?  Aren't they free to do those?
No, your argument is absurd.

[richyoung]

Getting married is a loss of freedom.  Taking a job is a loss of freedom.  Starting a business is a loss of freedom.  Virtually everything worth doing entails a loss of freedom.  It is a meaningless standard.

Voluntary surrender of freedom in exchange for other benefits is not equivalent to loss of freedom by force.

Yes.  Exactly the point.  You have stated more succinctly than I could why chattel slavery is not comparable to:
the draft,

Whats "voluntary" about the draft?  My understanding is that if they call your number, you HAVE to go.

Prison

you seriously can't see how some element of coercion might exist in staffing "prison industries"?

Playing football for the NFL.

Refresh my memory how Emmitt Smith got to pick who he would work for when he got out of college - OOPS - he DIDN'T.  No choice in the matter.  If he was going to play football inthe NFL, he was going to play it in Dallas.  Thats like Pizza Hut drafting high school graduates (who got high marks in Driver's Ed), paying them sub-minimum wage, and preventing them from working at any OTHER pizza place if they didn't like it.

[Perd Hapley]

rich, I don't know much about sports.  In fact, I take pride in it.  What is slave-like about sports drafts?  How do they work?  Why didn't anyone warn me when I was enrolled in various universities that I could be drafted and forced to play silly games for very good money?

[The Rabbi]

Playing football for the NFL.

Refresh my memory how Emmitt Smith got to pick who he would work for when he got out of college - OOPS - he DIDN'T.  No choice in the matter.  If he was going to play football inthe NFL, he was going to play it in Dallas.  Thats like Pizza Hut drafting high school graduates (who got high marks in Driver's Ed), paying them sub-minimum wage, and preventing them from working at any OTHER pizza place if they didn't like it.

So football players are paid sub-minimum wage?  In what universe is that true?
Football players sign up for the draft.  They know what the rules are before they do that.  They are free to play in some other league or not play at all.  During their time they are free to supplement their poverty wages by acting, endorsing products, modeling or any of the other low-wage jobs currently being filled by illegal Mexican immigrants. Comparing that to slavery is ludicrous.  Even for you.

[richyoung]

Playing football for the NFL.

Refresh my memory how Emmitt Smith got to pick who he would work for when he got out of college - OOPS - he DIDN'T.  No choice in the matter.  If he was going to play football inthe NFL, he was going to play it in Dallas.  Thats like Pizza Hut drafting high school graduates (who got high marks in Driver's Ed), paying them sub-minimum wage, and preventing them from working at any OTHER pizza place if they didn't like it.

So football players are paid sub-minimum wage?  In what universe is that true?

In the spirit of this being the armed POLITE society, I will restrain myself and point out its an illustrative metaphor.  To the extent that the player isn't free to play for whom he pleases, at a mutually negotiated price, (like a "free agent, funny term that, can), the fedgov is colluding in a system of partial slavery.  At the benefit of millionaire team owners, many of whom play in publicly subsidized stadiums to boot.

Football players sign up for the draft.  They know what the rules are before they do that.

AAn alternative with no alternative IS no alternative.

They are free to play in some other league or not play at all.

Why should they have to?  Or to put it another way, the military draftee is free to go to Canada.  Or jail.  Whoopie!

[The Rabbi]

The intelligence analyst isnt free to work for whomever he'd like either.  The drug company researcher isnt free to work for whomever he'd like either.  
Again, just about anything worthwhile involves giving up a measure of freedom.  Which eliminates that as a meaningful argument.

[richyoung]

The intelligence analyst isnt free to work for whomever he'd like either.  

That would be news to Straford International, RAND Corporation, Raytheon, Jane's Defense Weekly, Fox network, and any number of private companies who privately employ intelligence analysts.  In fact, even government analysts can quuit and work for private or even foriegn companiews and governments - they jsut can't reveal anything that would compromise intelligence gathering methods their previous employer used without permission.  Not to mention that no one holds a gun to the guys head and FORCES him to join the CIA or whatever - so you are, once again, quite simply and spectacularly, WRONG!

The drug company researcher isnt free to work for whomever he'd like either. 

If he quits and goes to a different company, he may be under the perue of a non-disclosure, or even a non-compete clause that he VOLUNTARILY ENTERED.  This is quite different from being forced to join the military and go to Vietnam to kill people, even if you never intended to enter that line of work, on penalty of imprisonment - a difference that seems to escape no one, but you...

Again, just about anything worthwhile involves giving up a measure of freedom.  Which eliminates that as a meaningful argument.

You keep missing the VOLUNTARY part - if I CHOOSE to join the Marine Corps, or Peace Corps, or Eli Lilly, clearly that is not slavery.  If the power of the government says "do it or else", that what am I, other than a government slave?

[The Rabbi]

The intelligence analyst isnt free to work for whomever he'd like either. 

That would be news to Straford International, RAND Corporation, Raytheon, Jane's Defense Weekly, Fox network, and any number of private companies who privately employ intelligence analysts.  In fact, even government analysts can quuit and work for private or even foriegn companiews and governments - they jsut can't reveal anything that would compromise intelligence gathering methods their previous employer used without permission.  Not to mention that no one holds a gun to the guys head and FORCES him to join the CIA or whatever - so you are, once again, quite simply and spectacularly, WRONG!

You amazingly post things refuting your own positions, more eloquently than I ever could, and conclude that I am wrong.  You are either playing for laughs or completely insane.  In either case argument is a waste.

[richyoung]

In either case argument is a waste.

In your cae, you are, for once, right.

[CAnnoneer]

richyoung, the Rabbi does not understand and/or acknowledge the difference between self-imposed voluntary restrictions and loss of freedom imposed by an outside agency. So, further discussion would be just spinning our wheels.

[richyoung]

So noted.

[Perd Hapley]

Still asking:

rich, I don't know much about sports.  In fact, I take pride in it.  What is slave-like about sports drafts?  How do they work?  Why didn't anyone warn me when I was enrolled in various universities that I could be drafted and forced to play silly games for very good money?