The demise of the American male worker

[MillCreek]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/12/upshot/unemployment-the-vanishing-male-worker-how-america-fell-behind.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=photo-spot-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0&abt=0002&abg=0

Why so many American men, ages 25-54, are not working.  Worth a read.

[wmenorr67]

The one should quit paying the damn union dues and then find work as a non-union electrician.   

[TechMan]

The one should quit paying the damn union dues and then find work as a non-union electrician.   

Yea, I don't get that one.

[charby]

The one should quit paying the damn union dues and then find work as a non-union electrician.   

or move somewhere that is hiring electricians.

My Dad worked as an electrician from 1971-2010, he was only laid off for 2 days the entire time.

He retired at 60 years of age on a nice pension.

[Balog]

The one should quit paying the damn union dues and then find work as a non-union electrician.   

Yea, I don't get that one.

I hate unions as much as the next red blooded, non-communist American but there are certainly times when staying unemployed as a dues paying union member might be a more practical choice.

[KD5NRH]

Why so many American men, ages 25-54, are not working.  Worth a read.

“I’m 49 with two kids — $10 just isn’t going to cut it.”

BS.  When my ex wife wasn't working, I was supporting both of us on $10.50/hr.  We didn't have an entertainment budget other than maybe $20-40 a pay period from my overtime, (including no cable, satellite, etc.) but we didn't have to go on food stamps either until I got cut from ~48 hours a week down to 30.  We even maintained (cheap) cell phones and internet during that time.  (Though, IIRC, one of her out-of-state relatives paid the internet bill a time or two so they could Skype.)

Makes me think most of these people need to be tossed into some sort of boot camp for frugality; make them live on the take home pay that plenty of other people manage to get by on just fine.  Sure, you have to fire the housekeeper and stop hanging out at the bar running up a $150+ tab every week, and might even have to cut back to a half pack of smokes a day, but none of those "hardships" ever killed anybody.

[Balog]

Really depends on the cost of living in the area and prior expenses. If you've got a mortgage, credit card debt, student loan debt, car payment, and live in a high CoL area then it's not a matter of frugality.

[wmenorr67]

I hate unions as much as the next red blooded, non-communist American but there are certainly times when staying unemployed as a dues paying union member might be a more practical choice.

But if you aren't working how can you justify the expense to pay to not work? 

[MillCreek]

But if you aren't working how can you justify the expense to pay to not work? 

The article mentioned that he was continuing to pay union dues to preserve his pension from the union.  Perhaps the pension plan has a requirement that you must be an active union member, or at least paid up, in order to get the pension.

[KD5NRH]

Really depends on the cost of living in the area and prior expenses. If you've got a mortgage, credit card debt, student loan debt, car payment, and live in a high CoL area then it's not a matter of frugality.

If you've got all those and can't afford to pay them, then you're lacking in frugality anyway.  If you could afford to pay them at one time, you should have focused on getting them paid off quicker rather than taking on even more debt.  

When we had a mortgage payment, we were driving whatever the local mechanic picked up on a lien and was trying to get rid of for $1200 or less.  Between not having a car payment and not having to have full coverage on financed cars, we paid off the credit card pretty quickly too.  I see a lot of people who "can't make ends meet" driving relatively new cars and still talking about trading up as soon as they can.

If you're not working, why stay in a high CoL area?  After a couple months out of good work, I got out of Dallas because minimum wage is the same in places where rent is half as much.  In the interim, I was working overtime just to keep the bills paid and buy gas to get to and from work.  My debt was minimal, but buying ramen and pork and beans finished off what money there was after gas, car insurance, rent, electric and water bills.  If the car broke down, I would have been screwed.  When I moved, I spent a couple weeks on a friend's couch working exactly 40 hours at an 8-5 job, and then rented a room for a couple more months until a house I liked came available.  By the time I was settled in, I'd gone from 60+ hours a week just to keep a roof over my head and eat daily to 40 giving me an extra $200/mo after all the essentials were paid and much better groceries bought.  That plus what OT I could get paid off a couple of debts quickly, and I was able to catch up the car maintenance, then get the student loans out of default, and then get back to school.

[Balog]

But if you aren't working how can you justify the expense to pay to not work? 

1. The pension thing as MillCreek mentioned is the biggest one. Some 55 year old who could either scrape up the dues every month or lose his entire retirement plan will probably pay the dues. Yeah yeah I know, "He shouldn't have put himself in that position blah blah" but things happen and people make bad choices. Still have to live with it after.
2. At least for some local unions, if you take a non-union job you're forever expelled from the field and can't get back in. If his geographic location offers no good non-union jobs in his profession and he doesn't want to or can't move, then that'd be a compelling reason as well.

[Balog]

If you've got all those and can't afford to pay them, then you're lacking in frugality anyway.  If you could afford to pay them at one time, you should have focused on getting them paid off quicker rather than taking on even more debt.  

When we had a mortgage payment, we were driving whatever the local mechanic picked up on a lien and was trying to get rid of for $1200 or less.  Between not having a car payment and not having to have full coverage on financed cars, we paid off the credit card pretty quickly too.  I see a lot of people who "can't make ends meet" driving relatively new cars and still talking about trading up as soon as they can.

If you're not working, why stay in a high CoL area?  After a couple months out of good work, I got out of Dallas because minimum wage is the same in places where rent is half as much.  In the interim, I was working overtime just to keep the bills paid and buy gas to get to and from work.  My debt was minimal, but buying ramen and pork and beans finished off what money there was after gas, car insurance, rent, electric and water bills.  If the car broke down, I would have been screwed.  When I moved, I spent a couple weeks on a friend's couch working exactly 40 hours at an 8-5 job, and then rented a room for a couple more months until a house I liked came available.  By the time I was settled in, I'd gone from 60+ hours a week just to keep a roof over my head and eat daily to 40 giving me an extra $200/mo after all the essentials were paid and much better groceries bought.  That plus what OT I could get paid off a couple of debts quickly, and I was able to catch up the car maintenance, then get the student loans out of default, and then get back to school.

People make bad choices, and they still have to live with them after.

Maybe their car broke down where yours didn't. Maybe they didn't have any friends who would let them and their X kids couch surf. Maybe they had medical issues.

[Parker Dean]

"Mr. Walsh" needs to quit whining and get a job driving a truck.

[brimic]

The stories in the article sounded long on excuses and short on ambition.

[brimic]

The one should quit paying the damn union dues and then find work as a non-union electrician.   

My ex-neighbor went through that about 8 years ago. He quickly ditched the union and started his own business- he's doing really well for himself now.

[brimic]

Really depends on the cost of living in the area and prior expenses. If you've got a mortgage, credit card debt, student loan debt, car payment, and live in a high CoL area then it's not a matter of frugality.

With the exception of student loans, a person can walk away from all of those things on the list, move somewhere where there are jobs, and start over.
.Gov has made the safety nets a bit too cushy.

[Balog]

With the exception of student loans, a person can walk away from all of those things on the list, move somewhere where there are jobs, and start over.
.Gov has made the safety nets a bit too cushy.

When one "walks away" they are defaulting on their obligations and screwing over the people who lent them money. Yay for personal responsibility!

[KD5NRH]

With the exception of student loans, a person can walk away from all of those things on the list, move somewhere where there are jobs, and start over.

More responsibly, one can "self defer" on those, without significant penalty.  Initially like walking away, except that you start paying again when you get back on your feet.  Far from ideal, but when the alternative is to keep racking up more debt or let your family go hungry, you take care of the necessities first, then do what you can to improve the situation, including improving your ability to pay the debts.

.Gov has made the safety nets a bit too cushy.

Too cushy for the ones who only had a backup plan consisting of walking away.  Often not enough for the ones who would like to stay honest.  What I've paid into the system over the years would easily cover the remainder of a 4 year degree for me, including enough living expenses to work part time minimum wage while going to school full time.  Instead, if this job folds, I'll be building up more student loan debt while working full time plus at whatever I can find, and most likely fighting to get even passing grades with the resulting schedule.  IMO, people who have paid in for a certain amount of time should get some extra consideration when it comes to available benefits, making up the loss by cutting benefits to those who have been leeching off the system for years or decades.

The stories in the article sounded long on excuses and short on ambition.

That about sums it up.

People make bad choices, and they still have to live with them after.

Wrong board; that's the liberal mantra.  Most people learn to stop making the bad choices over and over, and then they get past them. 

Pretty much every even moderately successful person I've known has had to pull themselves up from rock bottom or lower at some point.  Off the top of my head, the most memorable started his recovery with no HS diploma, a back injury and no prior experience in any useful skill other than roofing.  He found a couple of minimum wage call center jobs to hold him over while he got his GED, took out student loans for an AS, and ended up working his way up to regional management for one of the companies he had been answering phones for, finishing an MBA in the process.  It's not rocket science, it's setting a series of realistic goals and making efforts instead of excuses.

[Balog]

Wrong board; that's the liberal mantra.  Most people learn to stop making the bad choices over and over, and then they get past them. 

Pretty much every even moderately successful person I've known has had to pull themselves up from rock bottom or lower at some point.  Off the top of my head, the most memorable started his recovery with no HS diploma, a back injury and no prior experience in any useful skill other than roofing.  He found a couple of minimum wage call center jobs to hold him over while he got his GED, took out student loans for an AS, and ended up working his way up to regional management for one of the companies he had been answering phones for, finishing an MBA in the process.  It's not rocket science, it's setting a series of realistic goals and making efforts instead of excuses.

People living with their choices is the liberal mantra now? I must have missed that.

You asked why someone would do X. I noted it could be as a method of dealing with the fallout from previous bad choices. That's a simple fact, not an ideological argument.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

1. The pension thing as MillCreek mentioned is the biggest one. Some 55 year old who could either scrape up the dues every month or lose his entire retirement plan will probably pay the dues. Yeah yeah I know, "He shouldn't have put himself in that position blah blah" but things happen and people make bad choices. Still have to live with it after.
2. At least for some local unions, if you take a non-union job you're forever expelled from the field and can't get back in. If his geographic location offers no good non-union jobs in his profession and he doesn't want to or can't move, then that'd be a compelling reason as well.

Yea that union blacklisting is bad. Also pretty commonly ignored and even if you get caught you can typically buy your way out


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[brimic]

When one "walks away" they are defaulting on their obligations and screwing over the people who lent them money. Yay for personal responsibility!

Right?
So instead they should work the system- a system that has the power to hold a gun to the head of people who aren't serial bad decision makers and extract payments from them.

[Balog]

Right?
So instead they should work the system- a system that has the power to hold a gun to the head of people who aren't serial bad decision makers and extract payments from them.

System is what it is man. The .gov takes so much from everyone I don't blame folks for getting back what they can.

Besides, any losses the banks etc take are just going to be extracted from the taxpayers via bailout. Privatize the gain, socialize the loss.

[MechAg94]

People living with their choices is the liberal mantra now? I must have missed that.

You asked why someone would do X. I noted it could be as a method of dealing with the fallout from previous bad choices. That's a simple fact, not an ideological argument.

But eventually, we have to tell those people to suck it up and stop making bad decisions.  Most people are happy to help those who are trying to change or improve.  If they are still self destructing, sometimes you need to leave them alone until they finish.  

[charby]

Wrong board; that's the liberal mantra.  Most people learn to stop making the bad choices over and over, and then they get past them. 

Pretty much every even moderately successful person I've known has had to pull themselves up from rock bottom or lower at some point.  Off the top of my head, the most memorable started his recovery with no HS diploma, a back injury and no prior experience in any useful skill other than roofing.  He found a couple of minimum wage call center jobs to hold him over while he got his GED, took out student loans for an AS, and ended up working his way up to regional management for one of the companies he had been answering phones for, finishing an MBA in the process.  It's not rocket science, it's setting a series of realistic goals and making efforts instead of excuses.

How is that the liberal mantra? Balog said people make bad choices and they need to live with it. He didn't say anything that the government needs to bail them out (repeatedly).

[KD5NRH]

How is that the liberal mantra? Balog said people make bad choices and they need to live with it.

Living with your bad choices is the liberal way.  Working your ass off to fix them is what gets you out of that mess.