Cuba

[Scout26]

Cuba shipping us it's criminals, inability to trade for cigars(before they ruined their tobacco), various fresh fruits & vegetables, all the other miscellaneous trading opportunities.  Not to mention the realistic ability to influence their actions.

Gripping hand - by banning 'everything' we lost all control.

All of which by freely trading with other countries that don't rely on (practically) slave labor to produce.   

We won't be trading with the Cuban people, we'll be trading with the Castros.  The Cuban people will see nothing from their work. 

[roo_ster]

This will benefit the castros and no one else.  It will also cost us money the same that haiti costs us money.  Once again the american taxpayer takes it hard.

[Fly320s]

Well when they shoot down planes in international airspace it's problematic. Especially when planes take off from Florida


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Except when those planes have repeatedly violated Cuba's airspace.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Where were they when they were shot down?


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[Fly320s]

Where were they when they were shot down?


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One was in Cuban airspace. One had just exited. They reaped what they sowed.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

You sure about that?
http://miami.cbslocal.com/2009/11/29/i-team-docs-show-cuban-shoot-down-was-expected/


http://articles.latimes.com/1996-02-26/news/mn-40307_1_cuban-government

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[Fly320s]

You sure about that?
http://miami.cbslocal.com/2009/11/29/i-team-docs-show-cuban-shoot-down-was-expected/


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I stand corrected. One did enter Cuban airspace but was not engaged.

I stand by my statement that they got what they deserved.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Shooting down unarmed planes is a bozo no no  isn't it?


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[Fly320s]

Shooting down unarmed planes is a bozo no no  isn't it?


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Maybe in some countries. Cuba might have other ideas.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Isn't there some pesky international,law or sumpin?


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[TommyGunn]

Well when they shoot down planes in international airspace it's problematic. Especially when planes take off from Florida

Except when those planes have repeatedly violated Cuba's airspace.

Are you excusing Cuba for murdering civilians?

During the Cold War, the Soviets would periodically invade American airspace with Tupelov
"Bear" bombers.   We would respond by sending up ANG or USAF interceptor jets and offering them a pleasant, nice warm escort out of American airspace.  We did not shoot down their military aircraft.

The Soviets OTOH took a slightly different attitude.  Ask Francis Gary Powers.
 
And the Cubans are cut from the same cloth.

[Firethorn]

The embargo caused cuba to send us it's criminals? Really?!?

Can't track the line of logic?  That's fine:

By having literally 'nothing' to do with Cuba, to the point that the only escalation we could conduct is an invasion with US military personnel(we already tried with expat Cubans), they have nothing to lose.  Are we going to invade over some criminals?  No.  Ergo no cost to them.

By making it so that the USA can cost Cuba 'something more', we gain more influence over their actions.  I'm not going to be stupid enough to say that it would provide us anything near 'full control'.

All of which by freely trading with other countries that don't rely on (practically) slave labor to produce.

Where do we get most of our consumer crap from again?  China?  How often are they busted for using slave labor?  How much of our clothing doesn't come from a sweat-shop?  The road to 'better' is a long and rocky path.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

I think you are applying your ethos to the situation and naively thinking the Castro's use a similar one. the recent incident with the boat and a thousand other barbaric events show that to be delusion and folly.


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[Firethorn]

I think you are applying your ethos to the situation and naively thinking the Castro's use a similar one. the recent incident with the boat and a thousand other barbaric events show that to be delusion and folly.

I think you're attacking a strawman.  I have never tried to imply that the Castros think like me.  I never stated that they'd stop with the barbaric events, especially immediately.  I've never said that 'reforming' Cuba would be anything but a long hard road.

In order to effect change, you have to have influence.  In order to build influence, you have to have interaction.  We have 'no' interaction with Cuba or the Castros(other than dozens of assassination attempts back in the day, making us a joke), which eliminates our influence. 

Note that I'm staying away from using the word 'control' because that would be too strong for this situation.  We would control Cuba about like our controlling North Korea.  But we would have influence.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Here's what someone with skin in the game says
https://fredericksburg-dot-com.bloxcms.com/news/world/d-tente-spawns-cuban-worry/article_2a040dd1-100a-5620-8c55-6403f86b2d0e.html?mode=jqm


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[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Another person close to the scene weighs in
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/21/world/americas/castro-thanks-us-but-affirms-cubas-communist-rule.html?_r=1


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[lee n. field]

possible upside: http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2011/12/02/russia-plans-ak-47-ammo-factory-in-cuba/?intcmp=obinsite

fixed the link

[Firethorn]

CSD:  My response to that:  Free trade has been the biggest motivator for moving China away from communism(not that it's anywhere near a democracy yet).  Why would Cuba be different, other than in timeline?  I've already said it'd be a long hard road.

North Korea keeps trade barriers up for a reason.  Without those the Kims would already be out of power.

BTW, why double post?

[Dannyboy]

Heres a pretty good article on the embargo.
http://dailycaller.com/2014/12/18/the-cuban-embargo-was-never-meant-to-cause-regime-change/

[Fly320s]

Except when those planes have repeatedly violated Cuba's airspace.


Are you excusing Cuba for murdering civilians?

During the Cold War, the Soviets would periodically invade American airspace with Tupelov
"Bear" bombers.   We would respond by sending up ANG or USAF interceptor jets and offering them a pleasant, nice warm escort out of American airspace.  We did not shoot down their military aircraft.

The Soviets OTOH took a slightly different attitude.  Ask Francis Gary Powers.
 
And the Cubans are cut from the same cloth.

I'm excusing Cuba for shooting down aircraft that repeatedly violated Cuba's sovereign airspace even after repeated warnings.

Just because the US chose not to shoot down the "Bears" doesn't mean the US didn't have the right to do it. The USSR shot down that U2 because it was flying deep into Soviet airspace and spying on the Soviets.

[Ben]

CSD:  My response to that:  Free trade has been the biggest motivator for moving China away from communism(not that it's anywhere near a democracy yet).  Why would Cuba be different, other than in timeline?  I've already said it'd be a long hard road.

Not CSD, but as I mentioned in my post, just because the US isn't trading with them doesn't mean other countries aren't, and it doesn't seem to have had an effect, at least from what I can see) so I'm not sure how the US now trading with them will change anything when dozens of free countries who will trade with them hasn't seemed to have changed anything. That seems to be tied to who's running the country.

Again, I'm still unsure about the whole thing, but this always seems to be discussed as if the the only trade Cuba has or has had, is with the US, and discussions seem to take place as if the US and Cuba are the only two countries in the world.

[TommyGunn]

I'm excusing Cuba for shooting down aircraft that repeatedly violated Cuba's sovereign airspace even after repeated warnings.

Just because the US chose not to shoot down the "Bears" doesn't mean the US didn't have the right to do it. The USSR shot down that U2 because it was flying deep into Soviet airspace and spying on the Soviets.

So....you think it's OK to shoot down unarmed civie Cessna 172s and murder the occupants?  That's what it is.    
The U.S. pilots responding to the Soviet Tupelovs didn't "choose to,"  they were following orders in compliance with U.S. and International laws.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

And if you are gonna shoot em down you should do it when they actually are in Cuban airspace. Clinton pulled a Kennedy at the bay of pigs on that one by letting the Cubans chase the last plane so close to us.


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[Firethorn]

Not CSD, but as I mentioned in my post, just because the US isn't trading with them doesn't mean other countries aren't, and it doesn't seem to have had an effect, at least from what I can see) so I'm not sure how the US now trading with them will change anything when dozens of free countries who will trade with them hasn't seemed to have changed anything. That seems to be tied to who's running the country.

What other free countries are trading with them?  Venezuela?  My point is that us trading with them would be 'one more', and we'd probably end up being a huge trading partner with them.  It would gain the USA influence over them.

Again, I'm still unsure about the whole thing, but this always seems to be discussed as if the the only trade Cuba has or has had, is with the US, and discussions seem to take place as if the US and Cuba are the only two countries in the world.

How many countries other than the USA are interested in regime change there at this point?

[roo_ster]

CSD:  My response to that:  Free trade has been the biggest motivator for moving China away from communism(not that it's anywhere near a democracy yet).  Why would Cuba be different, other than in timeline?  I've already said it'd be a long hard road.

North Korea keeps trade barriers up for a reason.  Without those the Kims would already be out of power.

BTW, why double post?

Took me a while to respond due to the laugher induced hernia i got after reading how free trade with china was responsible for their somewhat less savage disposition toward their citizenry and foreign countries.

Cargo cult diplomacy and economics ftw.