Four dead in mass shooting at military facilities in Tennessee

[lee n. field]

Pistols are worthless anyway. So what if they all have  M9s? This  guy rolled up with a battle rifle. M9s would do about as much good as the gunbuster sign. Defending against this particular threat would require someone or 2 equally armed and vigilant persons with good defensible positions and  decent lanes of fire. I hate to join the side of the  anti-arm-them camp, but sidearms would not have acted as magic talismans to keep everyone safe. Issue  PDWs and you are getting close.

St. James Massacre

[Fitz]

Is that sarcasm?

He's got a point.

[makattak]

Pistols are worthless anyway. So what if they all have  M9s? This  guy rolled up with a battle rifle. M9s would do about as much good as the gunbuster sign. Defending against this particular threat would require someone or 2 equally armed and vigilant persons with good defensible positions and  decent lanes of fire. I hate to join the side of the  anti-arm-them camp, but sidearms would not have acted as magic talismans to keep everyone safe. Issue  PDWs and you are getting close.

I'm sorry, was he wearing body armor? A helmet?

Pistols are a less than ideal defense weapon, yes. However, the firepower he brought is almost completely unrelated to the usefulness of pistols as a response. ESPECIALLY if we are talking multiple pistols that can be brought to bear if all the servicemen were armed.

If we're talking Hollywood shootout, then, yes pistols are ineffective.

If it's some random Jihadi hopping around in street clothes screaming "Allahu Akbar!", pistols are just as effective against him if he's using a pistol or a rifle.

Further, the best gun to have in a gun fight is the one you have with you. A pistol is far greater than a stapler "no guns allowed" sign for defending oneself.

[KD5NRH]

To my knowledge there are no semi auto rifles in the Army inventory. It's possible there are a couple some where, but even the DMR rifles I've seen are auto.

Since when has DOD ever been reluctant to spend our money on something they don't have yet?

[Perd Hapley]

He's got a point.

Only on the top of his head. Of course pistol vs rifle puts one at a disadvantage. I thought we were all aware of basic stuff, like the pistol is just a stand-in, because you can't carry a rifle all of the time. Maybe I can't expect all of us to know that. Regardless, a pistol is a heck of a lot more firepower than no gun at all.

Besides, the next jihadi might not have an AK. He might have a machete, like the guy who chopped up a soldier in England a while back.

Also, I thought the two attackers in Garland, TX had rifles. Weren't they put down by guys with pistols, or do I disremember?

[vaskidmark]

Is that sarcasm?

I doubt it.

The piece of protoplasm was capping off an AK-ish rifle from 100 yards away.  With a pistol I'm fair at 25 yards (all inside the 6 ring and 75% inside the 8 ring), and at 50 yards can hit inside the target outline about 50% of the time.  At 100 yards I need a scope (old eyes).  You young whippersnappers may be a tad bit better.

stay safe.

[roo_ster]

This pretty much covers it.

So, the idea that military leaders have their hands tied is nonsense – the governing directives and regulations expressly allow senior leaders to arm their troops when there is a threat. And there is a threat – as we saw in Chattanooga, as we saw at Fort Hood. These freaks are not picking military personnel at random. They are continuing the radical Islamic war against America here on our soil, and our warriors remain stubbornly disarmed and defenseless.

So why would a commander not order troops who have qualified on their M9 pistols to draw sidearms and ammo and carry them during their duties, at least until this crisis passes? Perhaps their discretion has been withdrawn from higher command – that’s possible, especially with this toxic administration. But more likely it’s because of fear.

It’s the fear that some solider is going to have an “incident” carrying a weapon, and that that incident is going to lead to questions, and in an environment where the Armed Forces are shrinking, the mention of an incident on an officer’s annual evaluation report can mean the difference between a career and a pink slip. It’s the same zero defects mentality that is keeping our military leadership from being an audacious, aggressive band of warriors and morphing it instead into a timid, passive pack of timeservers.

Yeah, troops do dumb things sometimes. During my 27 years leading soldiers, I was consistently amazed by their creativity both in solving problems and in getting into trouble. But while real issues are rare – negligent discharges, lost weapons – they do happen. I dealt with them myself. But that risk is the price of doing business, and when our men and women are being shot down in the street without even a chance to defend themselves, it’s not too high a price to pay.

You train your troops and then you trust them. You punish the knucklehead who screwed up and then you drive on. You don’t turn everyone in uniform into a sitting duck because you don’t want to have to explain to the two-star why Private Snuffy misplaced his Beretta.

Regarding armed citizens guarding recruiting stations:

Doing the jobs American soldiers and Marines aren’t allowed to do.

[lupinus]

In this situation, I agree that being issued M9's wouldn't have helped much. Hell having a couple M4's stashed under the desk probably wouldn't have helped very much by the time they could have reacted.

But just because the specifics of this one event wouldn't have allowed a pistol to be of much use doesn't change previous events, like ft hood, where they could have been useful. At the very least they should be allowed to carry a personally owned firearm.

[SADShooter]

In the context of concealed carry, how many times have we visited the notion that the presence of a firearm elevates one's situational awareness? This is also about mindset. If a pistol in a lockbox or M4 in a rack doesn't change Condition White thinking, it's a moot point. If it does, then security posture is enhanced.

[AJ Dual]

In this situation, I agree that being issued M9's wouldn't have helped much. Hell having a couple M4's stashed under the desk probably wouldn't have helped very much by the time they could have reacted.

But just because the specifics of this one event wouldn't have allowed a pistol to be of much use doesn't change previous events, like ft hood, where they could have been useful. At the very least they should be allowed to carry a personally owned firearm.

I think the issue of armed security/resistance comes down to the psychological dynamics of the shooter. Is he in 100% ideological/ISIS mode? Then yes, the armed response matters little, at least in terms of repelling the initial attack, because the advantage goes to the aggressor, although it could still shorten the attack, and/or reign in collateral damage.

Is he in your more basic mass-shooter mode? All the angst and low self-esteem issues fueling things? And ISIS/Sudden-Jihad-Syndrome just a facade? In that case, armed resistance/security indeed will work. Because most of the low self-esteem/loser shooters fold like a cheap suit at the first armed resistance.

[Balog]

I wasn't. I was under the impression that most "troops" (at least Army) are now issued an M9 pistol along with the M16 or M4 long gun. My thought was to allow carrying the M9 at all times. If deployment of the M9 is not as widespread as I believed, then some other strategy is called for.

In my unit in Iraq we didn't even have enough M9's for every turret gunner and truck leader to have one.

[Firethorn]

As far as armed security goes, going back to my training back in the day, some basic hardening of recruitment facilities could do quite a bit.

While sandbags would be 'cheap' and effective, they're rather obvious.  However, there are films that, while not protective enough to prevent 5.56 going through it in the space needed to reach a driver, will still drastically deflect and deform any bullets passing through it.  These can be applied more or less discretely, so a shooter that opens fire from outside will find his fire mostly ineffective, which gives the marines time enough to find better cover(heavy metal & wood desks, perhaps?), and assume defensive positions in case the shooter tries to come in.

A 9mm on their hips with 'discretely' placed rifles will give them all the firepower they need.

Oh, and an IDS isn't that hard or expensive - it's basically a burglar alarm.  

[KD5NRH]

The piece of protoplasm was capping off an AK-ish rifle from 100 yards away.  With a pistol I'm fair at 25 yards (all inside the 6 ring and 75% inside the 8 ring), and at 50 yards can hit inside the target outline about 50% of the time.  At 100 yards I need a scope (old eyes).  You young whippersnappers may be a tad bit better.

How well can you shoot a rifle if someone's lobbing rounds back your way with a pistol?  Even if they're not hitting you, it's going to be hard to overcome the urge to duck.

[lupinus]

I think the issue of armed security/resistance comes down to the psychological dynamics of the shooter. Is he in 100% ideological/ISIS mode? Then yes, the armed response matters little, at least in terms of repelling the initial attack, because the advantage goes to the aggressor, although it could still shorten the attack, and/or reign in collateral damage.

Is he in your more basic mass-shooter mode? All the angst and low self-esteem issues fueling things? And ISIS/Sudden-Jihad-Syndrome just a facade? In that case, armed resistance/security indeed will work. Because most of the low self-esteem/loser shooters fold like a cheap suit at the first armed resistance.

thats my point. I've seen a lot of "it wouldn't have helped in this situation!"  I agree with that. I also know there are many situations where it would help, even if a few details of this attack had been slightly different being armed would have helped.


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[lee n. field]

I doubt it.

The piece of protoplasm was capping off an AK-ish rifle from 100 yards away.  With a pistol I'm fair at 25 yards (all inside the 6 ring and 75% inside the 8 ring), and at 50 yards can hit inside the target outline about 50% of the time.  At 100 yards I need a scope (old eyes).  You young whippersnappers may be a tad bit better.

stay safe.

That's why we have lasers. 

[Stand_watie]

"Breaking news" was reporting on my twitter feed last night that two service members at the second location responded with (apparently illegally carried) pistols. A Lt. Commander and one of the Marines who was killed. Be interesting to see what the followup investigation shows.

[dogmush]

That is interesting.

I carefully haven't asked any of my guys, but I'd assume that the cars out front probably require DOT 1.3C placards to be road legal.

[Fitz]

"Breaking news" was reporting on my twitter feed last night that two service members at the second location responded with (apparently illegally carried) pistols. A Lt. Commander and one of the Marines who was killed. Be interesting to see what the followup investigation shows.

Prepare for new DoD policy, mandatory powerpoint training, and metal detectors at all military facilities

[T.O.M.]

"Breaking news" was reporting on my twitter feed last night that two service members at the second location responded with (apparently illegally carried) pistols. A Lt. Commander and one of the Marines who was killed. Be interesting to see what the followup investigation shows.

http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/2015/07/21/sources-navy-officer-marine-shot-chattanooga-gunman/30426817/

Navy Times put a name and a face on the Lt. Commander.  Said he had a personal sidearm, and also indicates that the Marine may have been carrying a Glock 9mm.

[RocketMan]

I think a certain LCDR's Naval career is over despite his heroic behavior.  At the very least, he has attained the highest rank of his career, no matter its length.

[KD5NRH]

I think a certain LCDR's Naval career is over despite his heroic behavior.  At the very least, he has attained the highest rank of his career, no matter its length.

But he's alive to be discharged.  I suspect the others (and especially their families) would prefer that over their current condition.

[vaskidmark]

I think a certain LCDR's Naval career is over despite his heroic behavior.  At the very least, he has attained the highest rank of his career, no matter its length.

Anybody want to place a bet on whether or not there will be the equivalent of a court martial for the Marine that was armed?  Can't let his family collect USGLI and other benefits after he violated all those laws and rules and policies and such-like, can we?

stay safe.

[T.O.M.]

Anybody want to place a bet on whether or not there will be the equivalent of a court martial for the Marine that was armed?  Can't let his family collect USGLI and other benefits after he violated all those laws and rules and policies and such-like, can we?

stay safe.

Not sure about that.  PR backlash may be too painful...  That may give the Lt. Cmdr a chance as well.

[KD5NRH]

Clearly, they had just disarmed some Confederate flag-waving terrorist with an assault Bible, but hadn't had time to write up the report or turn in the weapons they secured from him when the poor misunderstood upstanding citizen's rifle went off by itself several times outside.

[RocketMan]

But he's alive to be discharged.  I suspect the others (and especially their families) would prefer that over their current condition.

Absolutely.  At the end of the day, this is the most important outcome.