Author Topic: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT  (Read 11294 times)

Nightfall

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2006, 01:23:23 PM »
Here we go again...  grin
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Perd Hapley

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2006, 01:35:15 PM »
Yeah, Nightfall, it's about the same struggle to sort through related issues in an orderly fashion.  But I'm at the point where I can't let these things go by.  Here in Missouri, we just went through a month debating this amendment to protect embryonic stem cell research.  There were a million arguments against that amendment - it's just a terrible law from any point of view.  And I'm tired of dancing around the issue.  There's only one issue in the abortion/stem cell/cloning debate, and it's fairly cut-and-dried.  Is the blastocyst/embryo/zygote a human with a right to live or not?  For me, it's such an obvious matter of science and human rights, that I can't stand how many people don't get it. 
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Chris

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2006, 03:29:55 PM »
If I can go back to the original topic for a moment, at least here in Ohio, the republicans deserved to lose.  Taft was convicted of ethics violations.  Ney followed suit.  Noe's trial has shown how the Republican's controlling Columbus were a bunch of corrupt idiots.  the problem is that in the rush to toss out the bums, many good honest Republicans paid teh price for the letter next to their names.  Only good news is the Judge I work for didn't have to run, and my turn is stilll far down the road...

Standing Wolf

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2006, 04:28:12 PM »
I think the Republican party became the Democratic (sic) party lite.

I voted for every Libertarian candidate (not many) I found on my ballot. At least I know what the Libertarians stand for.
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.

lumpy

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2006, 04:40:32 PM »
Quote
  That's not what I was getting at, although I do believe that.  I was saying that any system of law is based on ideas of right and wrong, morality.  I believe our laws should protect the rights of individuals from others and from government.  Rights are a moral concept, regardless how derived.  Even if we set up our laws to ensure the survival of the group, or optimum prosperity, or some other outward goal, we're making a moral judgement that these things are desirable and that it is right and proper for government to ensure such things.  In essence, everyone wants to "impose their morality" on others in some respects, and they should.  In this context, we both agree with the moral judgement that the law should punish murder, so it is only a matter of defining what sort of acts fit the definition of murder.

although we disagree, or have different sources for defining our moralities... I pretty much agree with everyhting you said. How about a beer! grin
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Perd Hapley

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2006, 03:20:15 AM »
I think it's morally wrong to give my money to breweries - alcohol ruins lives and families.  

I am a pain, aren't I?   laugh
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lee n. field

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2006, 03:33:29 AM »
Republicans are best in opposition.  They get in power and somehow never get around to doing all the nice things we wish they'd all do.
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Ron

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2006, 03:47:51 AM »
Quote
Republicans are best in opposition.  They get in power and somehow never get around to doing all the nice things we wish they'd all do.

They are like "libertarian lite"

They say a lot of good things, get elected, then do next to nothing.

The libertarians haven't figured out how to get past step one.

Ron

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2006, 03:56:54 AM »
And not to contribute to thread drift......

It is easy to eschew or denigrate systems of morality that influence law when you live in a Judeo/Christian culture.

Won't be around to respond for a few days. I have 2k rounds of 45, 100 rounds of 00buck and 30 rounds of 12g slugs and 3 days of "training" at Chapman Academy in MO. The guy who runs our group is a former instructor and brings a group of guys down there every fall. We will have the place to ourselves for three days.

Now back to the regularly scheduled thread.........


Perd Hapley

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2006, 04:12:46 AM »
Where you coming from, Ron?  I live near Saint Louis, and went down to Chapman for an NRA course a couple of years ago.  Are you taking a formal class there?
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richyoung

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2006, 04:22:02 AM »
There's only one issue in the abortion/stem cell/cloning debate, and it's fairly cut-and-dried.  Is the blastocyst/embryo/zygote a human with a right to live or not?  For me, it's such an obvious matter of science and human rights, that I can't stand how many people don't get it. 

When you are going to put YOUR convenience and desires ahead of soem other human's, its easier IF you can convince yourself that the unborn/Jew/black/"red man"/Irish/Armenian/Kurd/etc aren't really "human"...
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

mfree

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2006, 04:23:42 AM »
Fistful,

I am unwilling to banter with someone who has his head so far... um... so involved in his stance that you aren't going to listen to me anyhow.

You would make an excellent fascist dictator, I imagine.

The Rabbi

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2006, 04:40:07 AM »
We have a saying in Hebrew that G-d sends the cure before he sends the affliction.
This AM's Wall St Journal has an op-ed from Dick Armey on the Democratic victory.  I hope party members are paying attention.  If more of them thought along these lines then the party will come back in the next election:

Quote
Excerpts from "It's My Party..." by Dick Armey:

"Our base rightly expects Republicans to govern by the principles -- lower taxes, less government and more freedom -- that got them elected. Today, with Republicans controlling both the legislative and executive branches of the federal government, there is a widening credibility gap between their political rhetoric and their public policies."

(...)

"To succeed in the future, the Republican Party must get back to basics. We need, in effect, another Republican takeover of Congress, reaffirming a commitment to less government, lower taxes and more freedom. As in 1994, this revolution will be driven by the young Turks of the party -- the brave backbenchers more inspired by Reagan than the possibility of a glowing editorial on the pages of the New York Times. Indeed, this is already happening."

(...)

"(T)he Republican Congress must reestablish its credibility as the party of spending restraint and fiscal responsibility. Likewise, the Republican Congress must make the most important elements of the Bush tax cuts permanent, particularly repeal of the death tax, lower income tax rates and dividend tax relief. These proposals deserve substantial credit for the current strength of the American economy. Success would represent real steps toward our ultimate goal of tax reform and a simple, fair and flat income tax."

(...)

"None of this will be easy. The good news for Republicans willing to do this heavy lifting is that the "ideas" of the left are bankrupt. Notice that the brightest liberal politicians, like Hillary Clinton, always move toward our policy ground as they prepare to run for national office."
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Perd Hapley

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2006, 04:45:03 AM »
Quote from: mfree
You would make an excellent fascist dictator, I imagine.

Godwin's law claims another victim.  Looks like I called it pretty accurately.

Quote from: fistful
Respond to my earlier post, or you will prove yourself unwilling to discuss the topic according to reason.

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auschip

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2006, 05:43:49 AM »
Quote from: mfree
You would make an excellent fascist dictator, I imagine.

Godwin's law claims another victim.  Looks like I called it pretty accurately.

Quote from: fistful
Respond to my earlier post, or you will prove yourself unwilling to discuss the topic according to reason.



Godwin's law specifically mentions Nazis and not Fascists, and thusly isn't applicable in the quote from mfree you provided.

lumpy

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2006, 05:53:17 AM »
Quote
I think it's morally wrong to give my money to breweries

damn! I can't can't get a break with you  smiley
"I have tried to talk about the issues in this campaign... and this has sometimes been a lonely road, because I never meet anybody coming the other way."
Adlai E. Stevenson

Perd Hapley

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2006, 07:25:24 AM »
Godwin's law specifically mentions Nazis and not Fascists, and thusly isn't applicable in the quote from mfree you provided.

Some hairs just aren't worth splitting.  Do mfree's posts make any sense to you? 
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

mfree

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2006, 08:06:02 AM »
Ok Fistful, I just spent 30 minutes looking through the archives and unless there's a dramatic oversight on my part, I missed where you unequivocally and completely voiced your stance on abortion in detail.

So instead of tilting at windmills and throwing together a fisking as I'd planned, instead I'm going to ask you a few questions, in order to find just where I have such a problem with you.

1. When does life begin.
2. When does a collection of cells become human.
3. Why is it any of your, or my business what a mother does with an embryo, assuming such embryo has not assumed human characteristics or is viable beyond the womb.
4. What happens in the event of a life-threatening pregnancy
5. What happens in the event of a rape pregnancy
6. What happens in the event of knowledge of severe or fatal birth defects in situ?
7. Expanding on three, what human characteristics are required before a collection of cells is considered an individual.

Perd Hapley

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2006, 10:16:06 AM »
mfree, I am eager to answer your questions, but I must protest that you have left some of my questions unanswered.  To simplify things, I will reduce them to three. 

Did I use religion as a basis for my position against abortion?

Will you agree that all laws express some moral idea (human rights, fair play, etc.) ? 

Would you agree that embryos do not choose to trespass on their mothers' bodies, and that the mother is usually responsible for the embryo's existence in her body? 

Now, your questions.  I will answer them, not according to religious doctrine, but according to my understanding of biology and the modern conception of individual rights.  I am neither a biologist, nor a political scientist.

1.  When does life begin?

Life, in terms of a new, living organism, begins at conception.  I don't think any doctor who performs abortions would disagree with that.  If the zygote (fertilized egg) were not alive, it would not grow into an embryo and we would not have this debate.  Sperm and egg are parts of larger living organisms.  When they combine, they form a new and complete organism.  Not complete in terms of being finished, but in terms of being a unique individual.  We could say the same of a five-year-old.  He's not complete, not finished growing up yet, but he's certainly unique from other humans around him.  This zygote has a unique DNA and will soon develop a different blood type and different fingerprints from his mother.  It is clear that he or she is not a part of the mother's body.  Some have likened the embryo to a parasite.  This is appalling, but it does recognize that the embryo is unique from her mother.  A parasite is not part of the host's body, is it? 

2.  When does a collection of cells become human?

No collection of cells becomes human.  It either is, or is not.  My liver is a human liver.  My legs are human legs.  Nothing produced by human DNA could be non-human, other than some sort of hybrid.  As I understand, embryos and zygotes are classified as belonging to the same species as the mature form.  Dog embryos are canine, pig embryos are porcine, and so on.  Why this should not follow with humans is something yet to be explained by your side. 

7.  Expanding on three, what human characteristics are required before a collection of cells is considered an individual?

Humanity and individuality are different concepts.  An individual pig is an individual.  An individual human is an individual.  In both cases, the fertilized egg is considered a new individual of the species.  While the rights of pigs are up for discussion, human societies typically do not allow innocent humans to be killed by other humans.

3. Why is it any of your, or my business what a mother does with an embryo, assuming such embryo has not assumed human characteristics or is viable beyond the womb.?

I have already explained that the embryo is inherently human, but there is an unexplored assumption in your question - viability.  If the embryo is a human individual as science tells us that it is, killing it would have to be justified by the same principles that would be applied to other human individuals.  It is most certainly our business, as a nation, to define and punish murder.  It is highly questionable whether lack of viability is sufficient justification for killing a human.  I leave it to you to define viability and to make that justification.

4.  What happens in the event of a life-threatening pregnancy?

This is one question on which I'm not completely clear.  I think there may be instances where killing the pre-born may be justified to save the mother's life.  But when confronted with two people in mortal danger, I would think it most proper to save the infant than the adult.  Of course, a child does not have dependents.  It is a thorny issue.

5.  What happens in the event of a rape pregnancy?

Rape, or incest for that matter, is simply not sufficient justification for the killing of an innocent third party.  Carrying the child may be down-right traumatic for the mother, but this is the fault of the rapist.  Killing the child can be just as traumatic for the mother.  Rape, unfortunately, cannot be undone.   

6.  What happens in the event of knowledge of severe or fatal birth defects in situ?

I'm not sure why this would be seen as an exception.  Do you suggest it is acceptable to kill someone simply because they are not healthy?  Or perhaps I don't understand the question.

In sum, every innocent human has a right to live, and this begins at conception/fertilization.  There are precious few justifications that outweigh this right. 

Fascistically, Dictatorially yours,
fistful
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2006, 10:38:12 AM »
I would say the question, being essentially one of homicide (not necessarily criminal murder, depending on viewpoint) should from a libertarian point of view be decided at the same legal level as other homicides.

The state level.

Individual states should be free to determine, via the election of representatives of their citizens, whether they consider abortion a criminal or justifiable homicide.  Similar to deciding if the killing of a person while driving drunk is criminal negligence or manslaughter.

If the people living in their own state don't like their state laws they are then free to change them, put up with them or move.

It should never have become a Federal issue, anymore than the killing of any other person should be.  There's no "equal protection" element in how homicides are treated.  For example, in some states if you kill in defense without retreat you are a murderer, in others you are excused with "justifiable homicide".
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mfree

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2006, 11:01:51 AM »
Quote

Did I use religion as a basis for my position against abortion?

Will you agree that all laws express some moral idea (human rights, fair play, etc.) ? 

Would you agree that embryos do not choose to trespass on their mothers' bodies, and that the mother is usually responsible for the embryo's existence in her body? 

1. Not directly. But your position is curiously similar to devout religious stances.

2. All laws do express some moral ideas. But most laws address two more more entities, agressors and victims.

3. Embryos do not choose anything, they are incapable of thought. It is simply there as a result of the input of a male's DNA successfully interfacing with the chromosomal information in a fertile egg.

To expand on two, the crux here is indeed the definition of what is a human entity. I posit that an embryo cannot think, has never posessed the capacity for thought. It will eventually become a fetus. There is a line there, somewhere, where there would be an "awakening", the creation of a self-awareness of a conscious sort.

The dictionary definition of "life" is the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally. The biologist's definition of life is that which  are cellular with complex organization, undergo metabolism, possess a capacity to grow, respond to stimuli, reproduce and, through natural selection, adapt in succeeding generations.

It is the difference between "human" as an adjective and "human" as a noun. Abortion whilst an embryo is still but an adjective should be freely available for the host to choose according to her own faith, morals, and ethics.

The argument can also be made that the embryo is "half male" and the woman can accordingly choose to eject that half since it is not native to her person. Other arguments, as before, state that the embryo cannot demand and win care from the woman without her consent; withdrawl of consent is an abortion.

Matthew Carberry

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2006, 11:32:09 AM »
The "half-male" argument is specious.  Women are free to reject sperm as outside invaders, once the sperm and egg meet the DNA involved is no more "half-male" than yours is currently "half-female". 

The two are at that instant inseparable and a distinct life form has been created.  You can't abort half of a single cell, blastosphere or near-term fetus, however you want to approach it you are dealing with a single living thing.
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mfree

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2006, 12:05:16 PM »
And I fully support the right of a woman to allow that seperate life form to go on it's merry way before it's a conscious being.

Perd Hapley

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2006, 12:07:33 PM »
Quote
Did I use religion as a basis for my position against abortion?

Will you agree that all laws express some moral idea (human rights, fair play, etc.) ? 

Would you agree that embryos do not choose to trespass on their mothers' bodies, and that the mother is usually responsible for the embryo's existence in her body? 

Quote
1. Not directly. But your position is curiously similar to devout religious stances.
So you decided to accuse me of religious fanaticism?

Quote
2. All laws do express some moral ideas. But most laws address two more more entities, agressors and victims.
Then why get upset about this being a moral issue I should preach in church, rather than simply asking me where the victim was?

Speaking of religion, I must point out that religious beliefs are not less valid than ideas like human rights, etc.  But they cannot be allowed to violate another person's rights, so long as human rights are the basis of our laws, as they should be.  The same should apply to the meta-physical concepts you believe in.
Quote
3. Embryos do not choose anything, they are incapable of thought. It is simply there as a result of the input of a male's DNA successfully interfacing with the chromosomal information in a fertile egg.  

To expand on two, the crux here is indeed the definition of what is a human entity.
That definition is not in question.  All informed parties agree that the fertilized egg is "human" and "a human," at least in the scientific sense.  Unfortunately, some project a meta-physical belief that some humans are not "full humans."  and use this as an excuse to kill said humans that would otherwise be protected by law.

Quote
I posit that an embryo cannot think, has never posessed the capacity for thought.
Why?  Can you prove this?  There has never been any concesus on whether the mind is dependent on the brain, or if the mind transcends the brain and only locates in the brain during physical life.  This is another use of meta-physical belief as an excuse to kill an innocent person.  Why is thought necessary to humanity?  Why is the embryo expected to think?  If embryos show no signs of thought, that may tell us that humans simply do not think at that level of development.  This does not prove they are not human.  The definition of life (below) dictates that the living organism must reproduce and evolve.  The embryo does not do this, either.  In fact, four-year-olds don't reproduce, but they are still considered to be alive.  Your definition of human should similarly allow for differences in development.  

Quote
It will eventually become a fetus. There is a line there, somewhere, where there would be an "awakening", the creation of a self-awareness of a conscious sort.
You are welcome to your religious beliefs, but not at the expense of others' lives.

Quote
The dictionary definition of "life" is the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally. The biologist's definition of life is that which  are cellular with complex organization, undergo metabolism, possess a capacity to grow, respond to stimuli, reproduce and, through natural selection, adapt in succeeding generations.
So you agree that the fertilized egg is alive?  

Quote
It is the difference between "human" as an adjective and "human" as a noun. Abortion whilst an embryo is still but an adjective should be freely available for the host to choose according to her own faith, morals, and ethics.
Since when?  When did we start allowing murder in pursuit of religious practices?  

Quote
The argument can also be made that the embryo is "half male" and the woman can accordingly choose to eject that half since it is not native to her person.
No, it can't be made.  When you figure out how to un-fertilize the egg and remove only the male half, leaving the female half un-touched, perhaps then you can make it.  And if said woman didn't want that "half-male" embryo, she should not have had sex.  
"Not native to her person"?  Where do you get this stuff?

Quote
Other arguments, as before, state that the embryo cannot demand and win care from the woman without her consent; withdrawl of consent is an abortion.
I thought you agreed that embryos can't be shown to be demanding anything?  In any case, it should be obvious to you how ridiculous this sounds.  The consent was either freely given by the woman, or she was raped.  In neither case can the embryo be blamed.  Additionally, abortion is absolutely NOT a "withdrawal of consent."  It is a deliberate act, intended to kill an innocent person.  We call that murder.  

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lumpy

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2006, 12:19:26 PM »
Quote
All informed parties agree that the fertilized egg is "human" and "a human," at least in the scientific sense.

Seems like a rather grand quote I for one, would be curious to see your source for that.

I found this on Medicine.net...

Quote
Blastocyst: A thin-walled hollow structure in early embryonic development that contains a cluster of cells called the inner cell mass from which the embryo arises. The outer layer of cells gives rise to the placenta and other supporting tissues needed for fetal development within the uterus while the inner cell mass cells gives rise to the tissues of the body.

I'd assume that they'd refer to it as a human and not a structure if that was the case.

interesting reference material from NIH...

http://stemcells.nih.gov/info/basics/basics3.asp

more

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002398.htm

I found this science forum which along with discussion has an informal survey on the subject...

http://scienceforums.net/showthread.php?p=309197

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