Author Topic: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT  (Read 11293 times)

Perd Hapley

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #50 on: November 09, 2006, 12:26:01 PM »
I'm guessing you're not accustomed to the dryness of academic or clinical discourse.

If they don't agree, they're not informed.  Science has us in a corner, here.  Unless the embryo is some different species, it is human.  And since it is undeniably a new organism, it would have to be a human. 
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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2006, 01:02:21 PM »
Unless the embryo is some different species, it is human.  And since it is undeniably a new organism, it would have to be a human. 

Is an egg a chicken?

roo_ster

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2006, 01:04:58 PM »
If the egg has been fertilized, it is, but at an early stage of development.

If not fertilized, it is breakfast.  grin
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Perd Hapley

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2006, 01:41:47 PM »
There is a chicken inside the egg, yes.  What did you think it was?  But jfru, who eats unfertilized eggs?  I don't know how y'all operate in Texas, but around here, the rooster does his fertilizin' inside the hen, not into the egg.  Stupid Texans.  Tongue
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mfree

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2006, 05:34:21 PM »
I'm a babykiller. Fistful, is that what you wanted me to say? I'll say it. I'm a babykiller. Or at least a potential one, because I'll allow it to happen. Bayyybeeeekiller. Purely because I believe it's really none of my business.

Perd Hapley

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2006, 05:51:45 PM »
mfree, is this a personal issue for you?
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auschip

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2006, 06:43:17 PM »
There is a chicken inside the egg, yes.  What did you think it was?  But jfru, who eats unfertilized eggs?  I don't know how y'all operate in Texas, but around here, the rooster does his fertilizin' inside the hen, not into the egg.  Stupid Texans.  Tongue

If there is no sperm present inside the hen, the egg comes out unfertilized.  Most eggs in the grocery are unfertilized.  Then again, i'm just a stupid Texan.   rolleyes

Perd Hapley

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2006, 06:55:18 PM »
Oh, OK.  I'll take your word for it.  What on earth do they lay those things for, then? 
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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #58 on: November 09, 2006, 07:35:33 PM »
Oh, OK.  I'll take your word for it.  What on earth do they lay those things for, then? 

The same reason a woman ovulates. It has to be there in order to get fertalized, if it isnt used out it comes regardless. The method used by chickens is really a thousand times less gross than what we humans do.

Perd Hapley

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #59 on: November 09, 2006, 07:40:52 PM »
Oh, OK.  Makes sense.  And all this time, I thought I was eating chicken embryos. 
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Antibubba

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #60 on: November 09, 2006, 09:16:44 PM »
I can see that the Christian and the Libertarian wings of the Republican Party will not be uniting anytime soon....
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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #61 on: November 09, 2006, 09:23:59 PM »
I can see that the Christian and the Libertarian wings of the Republican Party will not be uniting anytime soon....

The best hope of the Libertarian party is to start poaching old-style liberals who are voting Democrat than by trying to get every republican to vote for them. There are more divisive issues between religious consvatives and the libertarians than between most political groups. If the Libertarians would start advertising their stances on drug legalization, open borders, police and military power, and small government then they might start picking people up from the far left along with the conservatives that they have already inticed. Unfortunatly much of the Libertarian party thinks that they are supposed to be Republicans without the money, and that isnt going to win them many elections.

Perd Hapley

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #62 on: November 10, 2006, 03:14:17 AM »
Earlier in this thread, a wise man said:
The Libertarian Party will never be successful or libertarian until it recognizes the rights of the pre-born.  May it be, politically, damned for its hypocrisy on this issue until it changes its platform. 

But why is it that being anti-abortion is always thought of as a Christian thing?  From the polls I hear about, about half of the American populace is anti-abortion.  The religious right is NOT that big a movement.  (Yes, I understand that there are levels of opposition to abortion.)
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Antibubba

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #63 on: November 10, 2006, 07:01:33 AM »
Quote
From the polls I hear about, about half of the American populace is anti-abortion.

That's misleading.  At least half of Americans want to see some restrictions on abortion, ones that will reduce the number performed.  But only a small fervent minority favors a total ban.  A lot of us would like to see more commonsense sex education (Bush's abstinence doctrine, like Communism, is a good idea in theory, but bad when applied to actual human beings) and greater access to, and a greater range of, contraception. 

Contrary to what the fundi's think, the prevention of an unwanted pregnancy is not evil.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #64 on: November 10, 2006, 07:37:57 AM »
Quote
Contrary to what the fundi's think, the prevention of an unwanted pregnancy is not evil.
That's also misleading.  It depends on how you define fundamentalist, but very few American Christians are totally opposed to birth control.  I am not.  The "abstinence-only" position on sex education is not opposed to birth control, per se.  Their point of view is that teaching "safe sex" methods to teenagers results in higher rates of sexual activity and is actually more dangerous.

Quote
That's misleading.  At least half of Americans want to see some restrictions on abortion, ones that will reduce the number performed.  But only a small fervent minority favors a total ban.
That's probably true, which is why I added that "there are levels of anti-abortion."  So, I probably could have worded it better. 

Quote
Bush's abstinence doctrine, like Communism, is a good idea in theory, but bad when applied to actual human beings.
  It certainly isn't Bush's idea.  Abstinence-only is taught by certain sex-educators, who would refute your claim with data from their own experience with teaching it.  Naturally, this is a controversial subject that will not be so easy to get good data on.  I don't pretend to have studied the issue, but that is the view from the other side as I understand it.
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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #65 on: November 10, 2006, 09:20:13 AM »
But why is it that being anti-abortion is always thought of as a Christian thing?  From the polls I hear about, about half of the American populace is anti-abortion.  The religious right is NOT that big a movement.  (Yes, I understand that there are levels of opposition to abortion.)

Maybe because self-identified Christians feel the need to swing every political conversation that they encounter to that debate regardless of how it started.

Perd Hapley

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #66 on: November 10, 2006, 10:06:23 AM »
As I've been trying to communicate for a little while now, the abortion issue is remarkably low-key given that my side feels it is a case of mass-murder.  I am no longer able to let the issue slide so casually.  But I did not take this thread anywhere, not by myself.  I responded to something in the article, and was challenged on it.  If some have presposterous notions about the issue, and wish to spread them, they will find themselves corrected by me. 
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Volt

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #67 on: November 10, 2006, 12:16:37 PM »
UUUUMMMMM Yeeeeeaaaaaahhhhhhh OOOOKKKKKAAAAAA everybody. So I scan read this whole Kicked in Gut thread and yes If you came to this thread interested in how the ole Kick in the Gut happened.....Well yeah this sorta is how it happened.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #68 on: November 10, 2006, 12:35:05 PM »
You mean the Republicans got kicked in the gut because they weren't being the limited-govt., pro-gun, smart foreign policy, anti-abortion conservatives they were elected to be?  I agree. 
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Volt

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #69 on: November 10, 2006, 01:17:38 PM »
There are those things that are between you and your church and your God and some of those things are best not to be of Caesars concern.

I personally understand that the very act of heavily armed police kicking in a college girl's dorm room door in order to inhibit a moral wrong might indeed be ultimately conducive to a much greater danger to the People than the college girl's moral wrong could ever possibly be.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #70 on: November 10, 2006, 01:34:49 PM »
Volt, are you talking about abortion? 

If one side (me) says, "This is murder,"  It simply will not do to reply, "Yes, but since it is done in private, no one should intrude upon it."  The only answer to the charge that abortion is murder is to show that the embryo is:

a) not an innocent human
or
b) not protected by the laws which govern other innocent humans

So far, your side, Volt, has failed to do this. 

If the moral wrong being "inhibited" is a murder, would you then approve of breaking down doors?  Why are we going through the same arguments twice in the same thread?
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Volt

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #71 on: November 10, 2006, 02:01:09 PM »
Murder is a civil wrong as well as a moral wrong.

However your definition of personhood falls far to the abstraction and really solely into the exclusive side of moral rather than civil definitions. 

Is a clump of cells that what we would classify as having personhood or citizenship?

I suspect that the answer to these questions will hinge primarily in the study of the development of what we call the human mind. Not the human brain but the human mind.

I have to go. I am going out of town for a few days and to a wedding of all things. Now why is it that Caesar (The State) finds it his concern to intertwine into this union between two people as blessed by their church?  But that my friends can be a subject for another thread at another time.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #72 on: November 10, 2006, 02:26:18 PM »
Murder is a civil wrong as well as a moral wrong.
blah, blah, blah, not answering the question.

Quote
However your definition of personhood falls far to the abstraction and really solely into the exclusive side of moral rather than civil definitions.  
No, that is on your side of the question.  You are the one dreaming up meta-physical classes of personhood and non-personhood.  

Quote
Is a clump of cells that what we would classify as having personhood or citizenship?
You are a clump of cells, also, so that argument is specious.

Quote
I suspect that the answer to these questions will hinge primarily in the study of the development of what we call the human mind. Not the human brain but the human mind.
 And until the question is answered, we must err on the side of allowing innocent humans to live.  

Quote
I have to go. I am going out of town for a few days and to a wedding of all things. Now why is it that Caesar (The State) finds it his concern to intertwine into this union between two people as blessed by their church?  But that my friends can be a subject for another thread at another time.
Good question and good decision.  When you return, try reviewing the thread before jumping in with questions that have already been debated.  
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Volt

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #73 on: November 10, 2006, 06:15:32 PM »

You know guys the Republican machine courted this sort ideology in a very calculated way. I understand there is some very good books on this path the Republican machine took to end up with this big Kick in the Gut.

Here are is one I heard from a friend is quite good:

American Theocracy: The Peril and Politics of Radical Religion, Oil, and Borrowed Money in the 21st Century
by Kevin Phillips


http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?ean=9780670034864&pwb=1&z=y


·   From Our Editors
Can any other critic of the Bush administration match Kevin Phillips's credentials? This veteran political and economic commentator literally wrote the playbook (The Emerging Republican Majority) that the GOP has been using successfully since the Nixon era. Now, with American Theocracy, he has composed an indictment of right-wing policies even more scathing and erudite than his American Dynasty. Phillips details the axis of political fundamentalism, petro-politics, and "borrowed prosperity" that are endangering America's future.

From the Publisher
From Americas premier political analyst, an explosive examination of the axis of religion,politics, and borrowed money that threatens to destroy the nation

In his two most recent New York Times bestselling books, American Dynasty and Wealth and Democracy, Kevin Phillips established himself as a powerful critic of the political and economic forces that are rulingand imperilingthe United States. Now, Phillips takes an uncompromising view of the political coalition, led by radical religion, that is driving America to the brink of disaster.
From Ancient Rome to the British Empire, Phillips demonstrates that every world-dominating power has been brought down by a related set of causes: a lethal combination of global over- reach, militant religion, resource problems, and ballooning debt. It is this same axis of ills that has come to define Americas political and economic identity in the past decade. Military miscalculations in the Middle East, the surge of fundamentalist religion, the staggering national debt, the costs of U.S. oil dependencetogether these factors are undermining our nations security, solvency, and standing in the world. If left unchecked, the same forces will bring a debt- bloated, preachy, energy-starved America to its knees. With an eye on the past and a searing vision of the future, Phillips has written a book that no American can afford to ignore.

Praise for Kevin Phillips and American Dynasty:
"[Phillips] is a deep thinker extraordinaire, who does a masterful job of connecting the military- industrial dots. . . . A searing indictment of the Bush Dynasty."
Douglas Brinkley, Mother Jones

"Devastating . . . an important, troubling book that should be read everywhere with care, nowhere more so than in this city."
Jonathan Yardley, The Washington Post Book World
Author Biography:
Kevin Phillips, a former Republican strategist, has been a political and economic commentator for more than three decades. He is currently a regular contributor to the Los Angeles Times and National Public Radio and also writes for Harpers Magazine and Time. He has written twelve books, including The New York Times bestsellers The Politics of Rich and Poor and Wealth and Democracy.
From The Critics
Publishers Weekly
Scientists repeatedly prove the limited amount of fossil-based fuels left in the world and emphasize the environmental effects of using them. Yet many Republicans ignore science in the name of God while promoting a debt-driven consumer society. Debt, radical religion and fuel have been individual sources of expansion and destruction for many nations throughout history. Utilizing these precedents, Phillips provides detailed and troubling criticism of the United States' excessive dependence on and promotion of these three factors. Phillips predicts these practices will significantly diminish the power of the United States in international politics. In navigating this sometimes complicated book, Scott Brick delivers an outstanding performance. His command of the text will leave listeners believing that he wrote the book. His intensity matches the author's urgency while his emphasis proves a great value in determining the important information. Nonfiction audiobooks of this breadth often become cumbersome and daunting with information overload. But Brick leads his listeners with the gift of a master performer who knows his audience. While extras such as a time line, bibliography or character glossary could only improve this audiobook, the clarity of the text through the efforts of the author and narrator make it well worth the listen. Simultaneous release with the Viking hardcover (Reviews, Feb. 13). (Mar.) Copyright 2006 Reed Business Information.
Library Journal
When Phillips wrote The Emerging Republican Majority almost 40 years ago, he correctly forecasted the electoral landscape of the United States for a generation and has ever since been among our most prominent political commentators. Now, however, in the latest of his many books, Phillips finds that the party he once served as strategist has become "a fusion of petroleum-defined national security; a crusading, simplistic Christianity; and a reckless credit-feeding financial complex." While some points made here overlap with points Phillips has already made elsewhere, e.g., in American Dynasty, his broadside against the Bush family, the most original part of this new book is his analysis of the "southernization" of American politics, an important component of his case here on oil and religion. If Phillips's political allegiance has changed over the decades, the sharpness of his observations and the historical depth and range of his arguments-as well as the wit and style gracing them-have not. His warning of an "Emerging Republican Theocracy" is sure to capture media attention and draw many readers. For all libraries. [See Prepub Alert, LJ 11/15/05.]-Robert F. Nardini, Chichester, NH Copyright 2006 Reed Business Information.
Kirkus Reviews
A dazzling treatise on the collapse of Republican virtues under the fundamentalists and plutocrats united in the perfect storm of Bushism. Phillips (American Dynasty, 2004, etc.), the apostate former Republican strategist, once coined the term "Sun Belt" and envisioned the Southernization of American politics. He is now in the unhappy position of bearing witness to the birth of a Texas-fried, small-tent politics that blends religious orthodoxy and unwavering uncertainty in presidential infallibility with an economics predicated on indebtedness and extraction. The red state/blue state schism marks several old divides, he holds, one between "a preference for conspicuous consumption over energy efficiency and conservation," one between secularism and theocracy. Why would a good American encourage the latter? Well, a certain school holds that the Second Coming will not be triggered until theocratic rule is established in this most divinely favored of countries, after which, presumably, it will be up to the damned to sort through the ugly business of paying the debts and filling the tanks. Many of these divides are very old, Phillips observes, between "greater New England and the South"-save the polar reversal of the South now being Republican, the Northeast Democratic. As to the manifold manifestations of theocracy, few are subtle: Consider the Schiavo case, and unprecedented federal meddling in science education (with the executive's expressing a clear preference for so-called "intelligent design"), and the endless effort to undo various civil liberties. And the financialization of America? Again, writes Phillips, it's not subtle: "Never before have political leaders urged . . . large-scaleindebtedness on American consumers to rally the economy," to say nothing of an economy based on servicing debt rather than making anything useful-and, of course, on ever-scarcer oil. Other credit-happy theocracies, like Inquisition Spain, went bankrupt, collapsed under their own weight, disappeared from influence and view. Phillips's historical essay/polemic is provocative, though plenty of folks in Houston-to say nothing of Washington-won't like it at all.
Customer Reviews
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pastor dan, a pro-Contract GOP who voted Kerry, 07/22/2006 
Read Part III First
Despite the title, the parts on oil and the religious right are not the scariest. The part on financing shows how OPEC or the Red Chinese can sink our economy right now! (And WE set ourselves up). How real is it: the very day I finished the book my credit card got bundled into a resale package to people I didn't like the first time around (something covered in Part III). Especially if you're a conservative, part III needs reading.
Also recommended: Mayflower, Dave Ramsay's Financial Makeover, N.T. Wright's SIMPLY CHRISTIAN, Leslie Weatherhead's THE WILL OF GOD

A Greenspan, A reviewer, 07/11/2006 
SNOREFEST
He claims radical Christians are the threat, yet he ignores the real threat of radical Islam. He denies the 18 month bull market and economic success since the 2001 recession and 9/11.
Also recommended: We the Navigators, the millionaire mind,liberalism is a mental disorder, the enemy within, the political zoo, the savage nation.

Michael Thompson, a Director of Human Resources, 05/11/2006 
Must Reading
I listened to Kevin Phillips talk about his book and found him fascinating and a Moderate Republican. Now I have read it and believe it is outstanding and should be required reading for all Americans. I learned more about why the Right Wing Evangelical Christians are terrible for our Country. Mr. Phillips explains in detail why we went to war with Iraq (Oil), too many Radical Religious Christians and the incredible deficit George Bush has run up. Again, American Theocracy is simply one of the best and should be thanked by everyone.

A reviewer, A reviewer, 04/23/2006 
Enthralling and revealing
This book was a true education regarding the past and present U.S. hegemony and political manipulations regarding oil, national debt and the morbid and morose end-of-days Armageddon-loving section of our population. This was written by an ex-Republican strategist for Nixon, so for those who are dimissive of any argument or claim based on a person's political proclivities might find themselves more open-minded. If however, you are a reflexive Bush cheerleader type, you will not like the book at all. This book should be read to counter-balance the crony worshipping books written by the likes of Fred Barnes, etc. It certainly impacted me.

vincent david scala, an attorney in New York, 04/04/2006 
excellent, if a little disjointed
Kevin Phillips' book is an excellent account of the impact and influence of oil in foreign policy, the enormous power of mindless religious belief and it's influence on domestic and foreign affairs and the perils of our federal, state and personal debt. Coming as it does from a conservative intellectual is all the more appealing to a left wing radical like me, since my opinions are being somewhat validated by Mr. Phillips. The book was somewhat disjointed in that it cites numerous facts to support the proposition (good), but also is a bit confusing. It doesn't always read smoothly. I found myself re-reading portions of the book just to get a handle on some of the points being made. All in all, any American, Republican or Democrat, conservative or liberal should admire the intellectual honesty of a conservative intellectual who is saying things that any thinking person is likewise thinking. The influence of religion in America is making us a laughing stock around the world, given the mindless beliefs of so many millions of Americans. Our reputation (if we have one anymore) in the area of science is being shattered by the Know Nothings and those who would bring us back 1, 2 or 3 hundred years. The term used by Mr. Phillips regarding 'disenlightenment' is very true and very revealing. It is becoming almost a badge of honor to reject thinking, facts, knowledge and science. That is FRIGHTENING. The book is necessary reading given the times we live in.
Also recommended: Cobra II March to War Foxes in the Henhouse Team of Rivals



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Lee

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #74 on: November 10, 2006, 06:26:00 PM »
"From Americas premier political analyst, an explosive examination of the axis of religion,politics, and borrowed money that threatens to destroy the nation"

Does this mean that we shouldn't "Stay the Course"?