Author Topic: Is this normal, or an attempted rip-off? (Read 2620 times)

Chris · « **on:** November 11, 2006, 07:17:35 PM »

I went to a gun shop on Friday with a rifle and pistol to see what they had to offer, possile trade opportunities, etc. Not necessarily trying to get rid of either, just looking at options. The guns? a Marlin 39 with an S-prefix four digit serial number, and a Smith 19, 2.5" barrel, among the last of the blue, no lock Smith revolvers. the Marlin is in fair to good shape, the Smith excellent. the Smith has barely had 500 rounds through it. The Smith is in its original box, sticker on the side, still in the brown paper. Guy looks over the guns, goes in back to talk to the manager while I look over their wares. I see a well-used Smith 65 selling for $400, so I'm guessing they'll offer me something in the $250-$300 range for the Smith, and maybe in the $500 range for the Marlin. So, I'm checking out a little KelTec .380 that is $279, and thinking about dickering for teh kelTec and $500 cash for my two guns.

Guy comes back, and he says that the Smith is in great shape, so he's got a firm offer of $120 for that, sell or trade, while the Marlin is only in fair shape, so he'll give me $150 for that. I look at the guy, and ask aboutthe box and paper for the Smith, which he says is why the offer is $120. Without the box and paper, he'd offer me $95 for the Smith. I ask as genuinely curious as I can "Do you mean to tell me that this Smith is worth less than the Hi Points that Vance's had in their adds a few weeks ago?" He goes on to tell me that it has limited collector appeal, and most buyers want the new lock. When I ask about the Smith 65, he says that stainless is always worth more than blue, and they do have to make a profit? The Marlin? I mentioned the similar guns I saw on Gunbroaker.com for between $700 and $1800, and he simply looked at me and said that I really shouldn't try to dicker prices on something I know little about.

So, now that I'm done ranting, let me ask you all...is this typical? I never traded in or sold a gun to a dealer before? I mean, I appreciate they want to make a profit, but that Smith would easily sell for $350 or $400. Why should I let them turn a profit of twice what they offered me for the gun? And the Marlin must be worth more than $150, right? Or, should I just keep my old safe guns in teh safe and only buy whan I save up for it?

Headless Thompson Gunner · « **Reply #1 on:** November 11, 2006, 07:31:48 PM »

Selling to a gunshop is usually a bad idea. They simply can't pay anything more than half or a third what a gun is worth. They aren't trying to rip you off, it's just the way their margins work out. Don't take any personal offense to their offers, simply decline them and sell your guns for a better price to someone else. If your Marlin goes for $700+ on gunbroker, then by all means sell it on gunbroker for that price.

I've found that the best way to sell a gun is usually to post a "for sale" thread on THR.

K Frame · « **Reply #2 on:** November 11, 2006, 08:07:46 PM »

He's attempting to rip you off on the Smith.

He'll sock it in the case for at LEAST 3 times what he paid you for it.

Flat out ask him -- What price are you going to put on it?

I'll bet he won't answer you because he's trying to rip you off.

Avoid the shop at all costs.

Desertdog · « **Reply #3 on:** November 11, 2006, 08:35:27 PM »

It is very simple, "Buy Low, Sell High."

The normal spread between cost and sell price, on the new merchandise, is probably the same or more.

wingnutx · « **Reply #4 on:** November 11, 2006, 09:38:56 PM »

Selling to a shop is like trading in your car, you are paying for the convenience.

Cosmoline · « **Reply #5 on:** November 11, 2006, 10:07:33 PM »

Ditto on the above. Selling to shops is a losing game. Selling on consignment is a better option, if you trust the shop. Otherwise you can make more selling it yourself.

Standing Wolf · « **Reply #6 on:** November 12, 2006, 01:03:19 AM »

I work in a gun shop. We're a bit less greedy than many others, but we're still looking for quick buck profits.

If I weren't getting a hefty discount from the ordinary consignment percentage, I wouldn't even consider putting one of my guns in the used firearms case.

It's a pity I'm still looking for Pythons, or I'd be interested in your model 19. I've always preferred blued finishes to stainless steel, although I carry stainless guns, and wouldn't even consider buying a gun with an internal lock. If I owned your model 19, I wouldn't even start to commence to begin to think about selling it, if only because it was one of Smith & Wesson's best.

280plus · « **Reply #7 on:** November 12, 2006, 02:47:42 AM »

How much you want for the Smith? grin

Preacherman · « **Reply #8 on:** November 12, 2006, 02:56:47 AM »

Chris, I see others have also asked, but I'm always looking for the short-barreled 19's or similar for my disabled shooters (they fit well in a wheelchair environment). If it's still available, please PM me.

280plus · « **Reply #9 on:** November 12, 2006, 03:13:02 AM »

I'll retract my bid on ownership and throw my support to the Preacher getting first choice on it. I shouldn't spend any more $ on guns right now anyhow... grin

The Rabbi · « **Reply #10 on:** November 12, 2006, 04:25:59 AM »

I am a retail gun shop owner and I wouldnt do what your shop did. I tell people up front, you will get more selling it yourself. That just makes sense, right?
But I'm not going to rip someone off offering $95 for a gun that will fetch $300 with no problem. ANd the reason for that (other than that I have to sleep with myself at night) is that people arent dumb. If they come back to the shop and see their gun marked up 3-fold they start wondering if they are overpaying for other things. Then you get a reputation as a rip off artist and in this business reputation is almost everything.
Generally if it is a production gun I will see what a new one will cost. Then I will offer about 2/3rds of the new one, depending on condition. It also depends on what else I have in the case, how easy I think the gun will be to sell, how well it fits with the store's business plan etc. Someone offered me an AMT or some newest latest and greatest .380 for $1,000. It is probably worth it but I couldnt sell a $1000 gun, esp a .380.
And yes, if you want to deal with someone reputable, not like the shmoes on this board grin

, please email me.

AJ Dual · « **Reply #11 on:** November 12, 2006, 06:46:07 AM »

I'm pretty convinced that most gunstores price themselves on the infrequent and impulse buyer. They don't cater to the collecter, the constantly buying/selling "wheeler n dealer", or the just general knowledgable.

IMO, most of those know about the Internet, Gun List, Shotgun News, and how to find one of the remaining kitchen table transfering FFL's, and the stores don't even try to compete. It's a free market, the store is free to offer what they want for used guns, and free to price them as high as they want. Conversely, the buyer is free to go elsewhere.

If the storefront is still in business with their pricing structure, it's obviously working.

What gets me a bit hacked off is when I present myself as an obviously knowledgable buyer, and I make a qualified offer that takes wholesale, shipping, FFL transfer, and perhaps a bit more for profit margin into account, and my offer is rebuffed like I'm crazy. Just say "Sorry, we can't do that." and leave it at that.

Gunstores that have high impulse pricing, but accept qualified offers from me are fine in my book. What other people pay isn't my problem.

K Frame · « **Reply #12 on:** November 12, 2006, 08:09:42 AM »

Wait one second...

I thought, judging by what I've seen on a lot of gun websites, that we are to blindly, mindlessly support independent gunshops no matter what...

They want you to pay $50 for a box of Winchester White Box .45s? Hey, we're supporting the independent gunshop over that evil chain Mart store.

They want you to sell them your $100,000 Holland & Holland .500 double rifle for $250 because "ammo isn't available, and that means we won't be able to move it," DO IT! It's supporting the independent gunshop. And you should still feel guilty about saddling him with a gun that will sit in inventory for years.

The Rabbi · « **Reply #13 on:** November 12, 2006, 01:10:17 PM »

The independent retailer offers advantages over the big box, or is supposed to anyway. You won't find a CZ-52 or ammo for it at Wal Mart. You wont find someone who know the difference between a Tokarev and a Makarov there. You wont find someone who can give intelligent advice on a carry gun.
Now granted, from what I have seen, you wont necessarily find those at an independent either. But the good ones will provide that. Is that worth paying $7.25 for a box of 9mm vs the big box $6.95? Not to some people. If people dont want the kind of service provided by independents then they shouldnt go to them. But dont bitch when the WalMart clerk tries selling you .357SIG for your Smith Model 19.

Antibubba · « **Reply #14 on:** November 12, 2006, 04:20:12 PM »

Quote

"Do you mean to tell me that this Smith is worth less than the Hi Points that Vance's had in their adds a few weeks ago?" He goes on to tell me that it has limited collector appeal, and most buyers want the new lock.

This alone should tell you the guy is a con-only Smith & Wesson's lawyers want the lock! I wouldn't sell or buy there.

K Frame · « **Reply #15 on:** November 12, 2006, 08:38:55 PM »

"But dont bitch when the WalMart clerk tries selling you .357SIG for your Smith Model 19."

One of my moronic coworkers at the gunshop where I used to work once tried to sell a man .32 S&W Long for a .32 rimfire short suicide special.

The Rabbi · « **Reply #16 on:** November 13, 2006, 02:15:46 AM »

See my above comments that independents are not always free of stupidity and ignorance.

HankB · « **Reply #17 on:** November 13, 2006, 03:38:22 AM »

In this case, it sounds as if the gun shop is ripping you off. The telltale sign is " . . . he simply looked at me and said that I really shouldn't try to dicker prices on something I know little about."

Rather than debate the value of your trade, he essentially called you an idiot. Personal attacks are usually a sign that the guy's arguments have little merit, and he KNOWS it. (Also a big "+1" regarding the Antibubba's comments regarding the lawyer lock.)

There ARE independents that are rip-off artists. One local independent shop in Austin agreed to do a transfer for a fixed amount, and then demanded more $$$ when the firearm came in.

The extra money they got from me in that transaction cost them a lot more in the long run, as I - formerly a frequent customer - haven't darkened their door since that day and have sent several other people elsewhere to buy a gun.

On the other hand, a large "big box" retailer (Sportsman's Warehouse) has offered good prices and courteous service on the several occasions I've been there, and the staff has been knowledgeable.

280plus · « **Reply #18 on:** November 13, 2006, 03:58:25 AM »

Quote

The extra money they got from me in that transaction cost them a lot more in the long run, as I - formerly a frequent customer - haven't darkened their door since that day and have sent several other people elsewhere to buy a gun.

Don't that make you feel all good inside? grin

InfidelSerf · « **Reply #19 on:** November 13, 2006, 04:59:35 AM »

While I have to agree with the majority here that have stated the guy could just be a bit more honest and say that's all he can offer you.

Keep in mind it's simple economics. He like every other kind of business has their arms twisted for alot of extra costs. Besides the real estate, lights, employees, and insurance.
All understandable expenses, they also have a brave new world of legal and governmental redtape and extortion monies that must be dole'd out.

So I can understand why he has to lowball you. Yes that is a choice. One of which he handled poorly for future business sake(IMHO)
But I don't blame him for trying to make as much as he can on every transaction. He's in it for the numbers.
And we all know in his particular trade he has his back up against the wall with governmental watchmen and oversight.

/RantModeOn
Trying to run a retail business in this day and age as a sole proprietor, is slowly going to be a thing of the past. Unless some major crack downs on governmental micromanaging take place in the next 4 years. We will shift to an environment not unlike Mexico and India.. where only huge semi-lawless shanty towns live among the corporate secure wealthy elite.
Purely a theory, but the mass importation of 3rd world poverty and education coupled to a growing mindset that government must be everyones mother, taking care of us each and every day as if we were their very own offspring.
I'm sorry but when I read text in my local, state and federal codes. That makes me feel nothing but a subject of the state, a piece of property for them to enslave.
Income tax, Property Tax, and Probate. If one is to succeed in their world you must be subjugated, registered and administered.

That scenario is of course not true capitalism in play. It's a strange mix of Marxist views cobbled together in what was a capitalist democratic republic.
But then we gave up on our single unifying language, that used to bind us together. One simply written doccument could be understood by thousands and upheld as a solemn creed among fellow man. Now single syllable words are disputed and reinterpretted in order to cast a shadow of doubt and secrecy over the very language that make up the body of text that we all pledged to uphold. (Is that pledge still valid when the text is changed before our eyes without any consultation?)
/RantModeOff

Chris · « **Reply #20 on:** November 13, 2006, 05:35:10 AM »

This place has a reputation for being high priced to start with. While browsing their counters, the least expensive gun was a Smith .22 auto priced at $229. Next was a Smith 442 at $399.99. Even the factory certified Sig auto was $750, which seems high to me.

I guess I never thought of a gun shop as being the equivilent of a car dealership, in that they have a price listed which may be negotiable, and they seek to take a trade in a similar fashion. I recall well when I traded in my 1995 Chevy beretta with 65,000 miles and got $500 for it, only to see it sold the next weekend for $7,599. (Side note: since we bought from a friend of mine, who dropped the price of teh Chrylser Town and Country by almost $11,, I didn't mind too much.)

As for the guns, they are still in my possession. As for their future, we'll see. Preacherman, I'll send you a P.M.

thanks, as alwasy, for the advice.

Chris

ilbob · « **Reply #21 on:** November 13, 2006, 06:28:42 AM »

Gun stores are businesses, first and foremost. You will not last long in business if you sell low and buy high.

If a gun store buys a gun off the street for resale, they have no way of knowing what they will be able to get for it, or how long it will take. The gun store is taking the whole risk, so it is not surprising they want to make sure the margins are worth it.

Consignment sales are a little different. Many gun stores will offer to sell a gun for you and take just a percentage. The shop has a much lower risk, but you get paid when it is sold, rather than up front.

The reality of the marketplace these days is that auctioning them off on the Internet makes the most economic sense for most sellers, but it is more work. Most people are more interested in just getting rid of something and don't want to do the work.

The Rabbi · « **Reply #22 on:** November 13, 2006, 08:10:49 AM »

Guns are sold (and bought) exactly like cars, with depreciation on new models and all. Only difference is the financing.

MechAg94 · « **Reply #23 on:** November 16, 2006, 06:19:26 AM »

That is why I never take guns to gun shows either. Dealers never offer anywhere close to what I think I can get for a gun.

On the other hand, I made a casual mention of a pistol I 'might' want to sell on THR and had two different people PM me about it.

To get what you want, you need to find someone who wants it. If you use a middle man (shop), he will take his cut as well.

mtnbkr · « **Reply #24 on:** November 16, 2006, 06:28:18 AM »

Quote

Dealers never offer anywhere close to what I think I can get for a gun.

Not always. I got as much as I was asking for on a gun a year ago, which was more than I originally paid for it. Both of us walked away happy. Of course, that was after another dealer and an individual lowballed me on the same gun, in sight and hearing of the dealer that eventually bought it.

Chris

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Author Topic: Is this normal, or an attempted rip-off? (Read 2620 times)

Chris

Chris