Anyone familiar with Keystone shop lights?

[Angel Eyes]

Rural King has them on sale:

http://www.ruralking.com/4-led-shoplight-3000-lumen.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=email-2016-05-23-shop-light&utm_campaign=shop-light&utm_content=email-img-shop-light

Any opinions as to quality and price?

Thanks.

[brimic]

There were about 100 of the Keystone retrofit bulbs that went in where I work last week- they seem ok so far, too bad it weren't a year later when you asked 

[Firethorn]

$20 for a shop light?

I've said before - LEDs are best done in a fixture designed for them.  Given their lifespan, having an easy to replace 'bulb' actually costs you more.

[Perd Hapley]

$20 for a shop light?

I've said before - LEDs are best done in a fixture designed for them.  Given their lifespan, having an easy to replace 'bulb' actually costs you more.

If everything works as designed, or if you have good warranty service, then yes.

The advantage of retrofit lamps is that they are easily changed, if you get a bad part. Or five years later, when you want to upgrade.


In the OP's case, I'd go with the LED fixture, as long as you're getting low prices like that. I don't know anything about Keystone's LEDs. I guess you could look for reviews on different retailers' websites.

[brimic]

If you can find any indication that they are running on Cree drivers, they should be GTG.

[Firethorn]

If everything works as designed, or if you have good warranty service, then yes.

Here's the deal:  I'm seeing prices for LED Fixtures that are barely more expensive than a bare fixture OR the LEDs to go INTO the fixture.

As such, unless you have a significant failure rate and warranty service that sucks, you're better off with the fixture.  Consider that you'd need warranty service anyway if the bulb or fixture fails, though I admit that the former is a lot more likely.

As for upgrading - what sort of upgrade are you envisioning?

One good thing about getting away from bulbs is that you can usefully point all the emitters in the proper direction and heatsink them really good while having them spread out more - less heat equals more reliability.  More space for the driver electronics doesn't hurt either.

[Perd Hapley]

Here's the deal:  I'm seeing prices for LED Fixtures that are barely more expensive than a bare fixture OR the LEDs to go INTO the fixture.

As such, unless you have a significant failure rate and warranty service that sucks, you're better off with the fixture.  Consider that you'd need warranty service anyway if the bulb or fixture fails, though I admit that the former is a lot more likely.

As for upgrading - what sort of upgrade are you envisioning?

One good thing about getting away from bulbs is that you can usefully point all the emitters in the proper direction and heatsink them really good while having them spread out more - less heat equals more reliability.  More space for the driver electronics doesn't hurt either.

Changing a bulb is generally easier than changing out an entire fixture. This may be more important to those with disabilities, or w/o mechanical aptitude.

Upgrades? Well, wattages could go down, or you might get a brighter bulb later on, using the same wattage. Also, better colors/color rendering. Or upgrade to a $5, 500,000-hr smart bulb in the future, that's programmable, and remotely accessible. Or a color-changing one. Or one that's a wi-fi hot-spot. Etc.

[Firethorn]

Changing a bulb is generally easier than changing out an entire fixture. This may be more important to those with disabilities, or w/o mechanical aptitude.

An interesting thought, however, how do you balance easier installation up against the bulbs potentially having a shorter lifespan?  You're shoving all the components, often more of them(reduced efficiency due to being omni-directional means you need more emitters) into a much smaller space.

LED bulbs, in my experience, fail more often than the fixtures.

Upgrades? Well, wattages could go down, or you might get a brighter bulb later on, using the same wattage.

It doesn't make economical sense to change from CFL to LED before bulb failure at 1/2 the energy consumption for equivalent light.  Higher efficiency bulbs stretch out the payback period such that the only economical time is at replacement.

Also, better colors/color rendering. Or upgrade to a $5, 500,000-hr smart bulb in the future, that's programmable, and remotely accessible. Or a color-changing one. Or one that's a wi-fi hot-spot. Etc.

Get one with better color rendering in the first place.  Buy a new fixture with that smart technology, and is a wireless repeater to boot.  Etc...

[Perd Hapley]

An interesting thought, however, how do you balance easier installation up against the bulbs potentially having a shorter lifespan?  You're shoving all the components, often more of them(reduced efficiency due to being omni-directional means you need more emitters) into a much smaller space.

A great many LED replacement lamps are directional. But again, the shorter lifespan is somewhat of a trade-off against ease of replacement. (Not just easier to replace the lamp, but easier to find the replacement to begin with.)

LED bulbs, in my experience, fail more often than the fixtures.

I'm not sure what your experience is. Mine is based on seeing some of each come back from the customer. I guess I see more lamps, in absolute numbers, but people buy more LED lamps than LED fixtures, at least from what I'm seeing. Actually, no. Come to think of it, I've seen a ton of drivers come back, from failed fixtures. Maybe more than lamps.

It doesn't make economical sense to change from CFL to LED before bulb failure at 1/2 the energy consumption for equivalent light.  Higher efficiency bulbs stretch out the payback period such that the only economical time is at replacement.

Some people might want to do it, anyway. I don't recall saying that it would be driven by economics. I'm saying that the replacement lamp is easier to replace with another one (once again, in terms of physically replacing the lamp, and in terms of finding the replacement).

Get one with better color rendering in the first place.  Buy a new fixture with that smart technology, and is a wireless repeater to boot.  Etc...

It may not make economical sense to buy one with better color rendering in the first place. Or those other features.    I'm talking about tech that gets better, cheaper and more ubiquitous, with time.

I believe you based your argument on the low cost of fixtures. Where are you seeing cheap fixtures with all of those features? And do you expect them to be quality, and be backed by good customer service when they break down?

[KD5NRH]

Changing a bulb is generally easier than changing out an entire fixture. This may be more important to those with disabilities, or w/o mechanical aptitude.

Most of the disabled people I know don't use a lot of shop lights.  Even if they did, the difference between swapping a couple of bulbs, and unhooking the chains to swap the whole fixture isn't that significant.   OTOH, the plug can be a PITA, since the box is usually at the ceiling, which may be several feet higher than the light.  This is one of those situations where I'd prefer the weed eater solution of a short pigtail meant to be used with an extension cord, (or prongs mounted flush to the housing like some jumper packs use so they can be charged with any extension cord) and then make up custom length cords.

[Firethorn]

I'm not sure what your experience is. Mine is based on seeing some of each come back from the customer. I guess I see more lamps, in absolute numbers, but people buy more LED lamps than LED fixtures, at least from what I'm seeing. Actually, no. Come to think of it, I've seen a ton of drivers come back, from failed fixtures. Maybe more than lamps.

Separate drivers?  Are you sure you're not getting florescent lights mixed in there?

Some people might want to do it, anyway. I don't recall saying that it would be driven by economics. I'm saying that the replacement lamp is easier to replace with another one (once again, in terms of physically replacing the lamp, and in terms of finding the replacement).

You have a point.  I just know that when I looked at the prices, the cost of populating a 'traditional' fixture with LED bulbs would have run me the $15 for the LED fixture($30/pack of 2).

It may not make economical sense to buy one with better color rendering in the first place. Or those other features.    I'm talking about tech that gets better, cheaper and more ubiquitous, with time.

My point is that when it comes down to it, you could just buy a fixture with those features rather than just the bulb.  I'll agree that there are some features available in bulbs that aren't in fixtures(yet), but I consider them something of a niche.

[Perd Hapley]

Separate drivers?  Are you sure you're not getting florescent lights mixed in there?

Most LED fixtures have a driver, which is the component most likely to fail. Sometimes, you can replace them. Other times, that won't happen, w/o some connections in China, and a firm grasp of Mandarin.

Some of those drivers would be part of a non-integrated LED retrofit, so perhaps I shouldn't count them. On the other hand, that sort of kit is pretty close in concept to a purpose-built LED fixture, so perhaps I should.

[K Frame]

As much as it pains me to do so, I have to say that Fisty is correct. 

The drivers are the weak spot in LEDs. That's to be expected, because the demands placed on them are far greater than the demands placed on the chips.

Without drivers, most LEDs would flicker in time with the oscillations of the AC current running through them.f

Also (I don't know if this is correct or not) I've heard that drivers are needed also because LEDs provide no resistive load in a circuit, and its on the driver to provide that. Otherwise, turning on the light switch would be like hooking the black and white wires directly together in a circuit -- it would trip the breaker or blow the fuse.

[RevDisk]

I was planning on going with this:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-4-ft-White-LED-Linkable-Shop-Light-54103161/205331022

Two rows of 8. Maybe add more. 36 Watt per, 3200 Lumens, 4.8 stars with over 300 reviews. And the site says there's 40 in my local store, Aisle 33, Bay 007.

Twice the price, but still thinking it might be a better deal.

[Firethorn]

Also (I don't know if this is correct or not) I've heard that drivers are needed also because LEDs provide no resistive load in a circuit, and its on the driver to provide that. Otherwise, turning on the light switch would be like hooking the black and white wires directly together in a circuit -- it would trip the breaker or blow the fuse.

Okay, as somebody who's actually wired up LEDs the old fashioned way...

1.  Yes, you need a 'driver', though they're a lot less complicated than the ballast on a florescent light. 
2.  LEDs DO provide resistance, otherwise they wouldn't be consuming electricity.  Yes, the driver still has a job to do.

Okay, LED driver construction, and why they really shouldn't fail that often:

First, on why the driver needs to provide resistance:  It's because LED resistance DROPS as they get hotter.  Which means that they'll consume more amps, go over their watt limit and burn out.  So you put a resister in the circuit of appropriate resistance, and it acts as a current limiter to protect the lights.

Put an actual current limiting power supply on the circuit and you don't need the resister, which is good for power efficiency if you're trying to maximize it.  More expensive up front though.

That's all that a LED driver is, really, a current limited DC power supply.

LEDs are diodes - that means that electricity flows in ONE direction through them.  You can make really cheap christmas lights by putting enough LEDs in series such that their breakdown voltage exceeds 150V(if you want the lights to last) or 120V(if you don't).  The light will actually end up being on at 60hz about 25% of the time, so say hello to flicker. 

So step 1 is a bridge rectifier - so you're feeding the LEDs a half wave.  They're now blinking at 120hz and on 50% of the time.  Flicker problem solved for most people.

But that's not really all that efficient for lumination, as you have to stay below the safe voltage for the LED, so you're not getting all you can out of them.  Slap in a capacitor to keep the voltage stable and you're now 50% done on the power supply.

After that, all you need to add is maybe a transformer(a lot of fixtures/lights will get around this simply by having the right number of LEDs in series), as well as a voltage regulator(for long life) and a current limiter or resister(to keep the LEDs from burning out).

A lot simpler than a ballast, the real trick is fitting all the above into the base of a light for less than $1.

[KD5NRH]

Two rows of 8. Maybe add more. 36 Watt per, 3200 Lumens, 4.8 stars with over 300 reviews.

Why not just a DIY arc lamp kit?
http://www.weldingsuppliesfromioc.com/miller-millermatic-211-mig-welder-with-advanced-auto-set-907614

Need bigger chains to hang them, and changing wire all the time could be tedious, but they're bright.

[K Frame]

Yes, LEDs consume electricity, but the resistance is so minor (unless you have a ton of them) that it's a problem wiring them directly into a circuit.

At least that's what I took away from the explanation.

Then again, electrical stuff more or less baffles me.

[K Frame]

A friend and I made an arc lamp years ago.

We knew it would be bright, but holy *expletive deleted*it!!! 

[Brad Johnson]

If I were buying fixtures I'd likely go with a middle-of-the-road domestic brand, sourced locally. That has been, for me at oeast, the best combination of reliability and product support for residential applications.

Brad

[Firethorn]

Yes, LEDs consume electricity, but the resistance is so minor (unless you have a ton of them) that it's a problem wiring them directly into a circuit.

Well, you're looking at about 38 of them. 

At least that's what I took away from the explanation.

Eh, 'resistance lowers as they get hotter, creating a runaway situation which causes them to smoke' would be a different thing.

[Nick1911]

Firethorn nailed it.  LED's have a negative temperature coefficient of resistance.  They require some ancillary components to clamp current when connected to a constant voltage supply.

Resistors are the standard for low voltage quick and dirty work.  Capacitors tend to work better on AC circuits to clamp current - they present capacitive reactance which does a nice job of limiting current without actually consuming watts (as a resistor would)

Of course, commercially the driver circuits are built and optimized to the particularity use case using a variety of components.  Usually, it seems to look like a constant current switched mode power supply.

[K Frame]

Resistors are futile.

[Firethorn]

Of course, commercially the driver circuits are built and optimized to the particularity use case using a variety of components.  Usually, it seems to look like a constant current switched mode power supply.

And a constant current switched mode power supply isn't that complicated of a deal, even to have operating years at a time.

Now, my last computer power supply, which was around $100*, lasted for ~15 years operating nearly 24/7.  But it was also able to supply over 600 watts in like 5 different voltages(12,5,3.3,-5, etc...) over a wide range of input voltages.

*I buy very good power supplies.

[birdman]

I was planning on going with this:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-4-ft-White-LED-Linkable-Shop-Light-54103161/205331022

Two rows of 8. Maybe add more. 36 Watt per, 3200 Lumens, 4.8 stars with over 300 reviews. And the site says there's 40 in my local store, Aisle 33, Bay 007.

Twice the price, but still thinking it might be a better deal.

Horrifying price.  So the lights in my workshop (20x 2750 lumen, 5100K flourescent T8 tubes in 4-bulb suspended ceiling fixtures, cost me a grand total of <$300.  Instant turn-on, 85% of the efficiency, and 2-3x cheaper?  Yeah, I'll stick with the fluorescents...will be 5-10 years before the LEDs would come close to the total cost accounting for bulb replacement and failures. 

[Perd Hapley]

Horrifying price.  So the lights in my workshop (20x 2750 lumen, 5100K flourescent T8 tubes in 4-bulb suspended ceiling fixtures, cost me a grand total of <$300.  Instant turn-on, 85% of the efficiency, and 2-3x cheaper?  Yeah, I'll stick with the fluorescents...will be 5-10 years before the LEDs would come close to the total cost accounting for bulb replacement and failures. 

Yeah, linear fluorescent is still a pretty good option.