Vice: Homosexuals are more special than the rest of us

[HeroHog]

"Yeah, he was a traffic ticket away from 'prison gay'" (A comic I saw once...)

[BlueStarLizzard]

The murderer at the club was also a homosexual.

I'm pretty sure his goals that night did not include having a gay old time. 

His sexuality matters about as much as his religious identity, since clearly his psycho crazy issues took top priority.

[charby]

I'm pretty sure his goals that night did not include having a gay old time. 

His sexuality matters about as much as his religious identity, since clearly his psycho crazy issues took top priority.

X10000000000

[AJ Dual]

I'm pretty sure his goals that night did not include having a gay old time. 

His sexuality matters about as much as his religious identity, since clearly his psycho crazy issues took top priority.

Yep, and the ISIS/Jihad narrative is what he used. It's what he wanted all of us to believe. And at the end of it, that's all that really matters. The question the MSM won't touch with a 10 foot pole is: "If Al Qaeda/ISIS/Militant islamic terror didn't exist, would he have shot up the nightclub?" 

As RevDisk notes, the "situational homosexuality" runs rampant in the Middle East, but actually being "gay" is a death sentence. Wherever that dangerous schizophrenic knife-edge but hazy line actually lies.

My gut feeling is that the Orlando shooter "believed" in islam "enough" that he was in fear of his immortal soul and status in eternity to see making a play for the "Jihad card" as his way out. Or just enough for his reputation in a more cultural/secular sense that this was the way he wanted to be known and how he wanted to go out, and with whom he took with him. 

[cordex]

Didn't it come out that the dirtbag had already done a couple of significant and expensive Islamic pilgrimages that are unusual for someone his age?  Whatever spiritual contradictions in his life, I don't know that I would minimize Islam's - or at least his version of it - role in his life and crimes.

[lee n. field]

Allegedly.  He also had been married twice and had a kid.

Bisexual?  Or just that deep in the closet?

or "gotta be married" is a cultural expectation.

[grampster]

Bar = Safe Place
Definition:  "Stagger Lee shot Billy, Oh, he shot that po boy so bad."(While drinking at the Bill Lewis Saloon and Safe Place in St. Louis, Mo.}

[charby]

Yep, and the ISIS/Jihad narrative is what he used. It's what he wanted all of us to believe. And at the end of it, that's all that really matters. The question the MSM won't touch with a 10 foot pole is: "If Al Qaeda/ISIS/Militant islamic terror didn't exist, would he have shot up the nightclub?" 

As RevDisk notes, the "situational homosexuality" runs rampant in the Middle East, but actually being "gay" is a death sentence. Wherever that dangerous schizophrenic knife-edge but hazy line actually lies.

My gut feeling is that the Orlando shooter "believed" in islam "enough" that he was in fear of his immortal soul and status in eternity to see making a play for the "Jihad card" as his way out. Or just enough for his reputation in a more cultural/secular sense that this was the way he wanted to be known and how he wanted to go out, and with whom he took with him. 

Or, he was gay, fought that he was gay because of his upbringing and tried to go out in a style that he wouldn't look gay to his family.

Or perhaps his lover broke up with him and was going to out him to the family and frequented that club?

[roo_ster]

Bsl,

I Iived in miami for a time.  I have probably been in more gay bars in one night than they have in your entire state.  My acquaintences at the time were not the sort that i would nowadays suggest as quality folk and among them were some who thought it great fun to take their straight friends to favorite or-even better- notorious night spots.

Yes, there is or was [20 plus years ago] both a common/stereotypical atmosphere, but that is not the sum total any more than the midwestern corner tavern is for straight bars.

Also, as has been mentioned, homosexuals-wherever they might be-have a rather high rate of violence among their own kind. 


Discounting islam as a motive is laughable and disregards evidence that the killer was so motivated.  That he might have more than one motivation does not disqualify islam.

[MechAg94]

Yep, and the ISIS/Jihad narrative is what he used. It's what he wanted all of us to believe. And at the end of it, that's all that really matters. The question the MSM won't touch with a 10 foot pole is: "If Al Qaeda/ISIS/Militant islamic terror didn't exist, would he have shot up the nightclub?" 

As RevDisk notes, the "situational homosexuality" runs rampant in the Middle East, but actually being "gay" is a death sentence. Wherever that dangerous schizophrenic knife-edge but hazy line actually lies.

My gut feeling is that the Orlando shooter "believed" in islam "enough" that he was in fear of his immortal soul and status in eternity to see making a play for the "Jihad card" as his way out. Or just enough for his reputation in a more cultural/secular sense that this was the way he wanted to be known and how he wanted to go out, and with whom he took with him. 

I tend to agree with roo_ster and cordex.  IMO, looking at his religion in this way would be fine if this were the ONLY Muslim who ever did this kind of attack.  However, we all know that isn't true.  I have agree with the commentary from the other thread.  There is something broken with that religion or at least with a large percentage of its adherents.   

[BlueStarLizzard]

I tend to agree with roo_ster and cordex.  IMO, looking at his religion in this way would be fine if this were the ONLY Muslim who ever did this kind of attack.  However, we all know that isn't true.  I have agree with the commentary from the other thread.  There is something broken with that religion or at least with a large percentage of its adherents.   

*shrug* Almost ideology can be twisted and used in such ways and they attract the kind of folks who a.) want to be told what to do and b.) are dissatisfied and discontent in life to a degree that is mentally unstable.
Islam may be easier in that respect that some of the others, but I don't see it as being unique.

In other words, I think the religious aspect in this specific case (and in most cases where some sort of faith is involved) is more of a correlation rather than a cause. Someone who is unable to reconcile their personal identity and their ideals is more likely to latch onto the crazy side of the messages. For this guy, it was ISIS style *expletive deleted*it. For someone raised in other faiths, it would be a different brand of fundamentalism or fringe brand crazy or even reject the more traditional stuff and go into some weirdo cult.
But the results are always the same and the people who seek out those paths generally come to some bad end unless they smarten up and GTFO.

[Scout26]

Didn't it come out that the dirtbag had already done a couple of significant and expensive Islamic pilgrimages that are unusual for someone his age?  Whatever spiritual contradictions in his life, I don't know that I would minimize Islam's - or at least his version of it - role in his life and crimes.

This.  He had been to Saudi Arabia on the Hajj (IIRC) 2 times since 2011.  Regardless of the speculation on his sexual orientation.  I think the FB posts phone calls he made before and during the attack should be taken at face-value.  I think he was upset that he couldn't be in Syria chucking them off buildings and setting them on fire in cages.

 

[MechAg94]

*shrug* Almost ideology can be twisted and used in such ways and they attract the kind of folks who a.) want to be told what to do and b.) are dissatisfied and discontent in life to a degree that is mentally unstable.
Islam may be easier in that respect that some of the others, but I don't see it as being unique.

In other words, I think the religious aspect in this specific case (and in most cases where some sort of faith is involved) is more of a correlation rather than a cause. Someone who is unable to reconcile their personal identity and their ideals is more likely to latch onto the crazy side of the messages. For this guy, it was ISIS style *expletive deleted*it. For someone raised in other faiths, it would be a different brand of fundamentalism or fringe brand crazy or even reject the more traditional stuff and go into some weirdo cult.
But the results are always the same and the people who seek out those paths generally come to some bad end unless they smarten up and GTFO.

Many like to say that.  However, looking at the crazies doing the murdering these days, the facts do not point to ALL religions. 

[seeker_two]

Being pedantic again ...

49 were murdered.  One got what he richly deserved.

Sorry. I thought the victim count was actually 50. I'd never include the murderous scumbag in that total.

[roo_ster]

I think it is a mistake to label this guy and most the others as crazy.  Their actions make sense according to their lights.  Calling them crazy lets us and policy makers off the hook wrt understanding their motivations.   For my own part i think this a deliberate tactic by the left and its allies, as an objective examination would be inconvenient for their world view and designs.

[BlueStarLizzard]

I think it is a mistake to label this guy and most the others as crazy.  Their actions make sense according to their lights.  Calling them crazy lets us and policy makers off the hook wrt understanding their motivations.   For my own part i think this a deliberate tactic by the left and its allies, as an objective examination would be inconvenient for their world view and designs.

To a degree, I agree with you. Crazy is definitely a misnomer in these examples, especially if it's used to remove the onus of the deeds from the person who did them.

OTOH, I have a hard time not thinking someone who is perfectly capable, mentally, who goes out killing innocent people as crazy.

However, I still don't see the difference between the mental stability of this guy and, say, the Heaven's Gate idiot's who off'd themselves.

I want to make clear, I am not attacking religion or being one of those libtards who is defending Islam, because I'm not. Right now, Islamic extremism is an ideology that is catching a lot of these kinds of people and using them.
I guess what I'm more interested in is cutting off the real bad Islamic Extremists from their source of cannon  fodder, if you will.

[makattak]

The problem with "crazy" is it discounts "evil."

There are evil people and evil ideologies.  We want to pretend otherwise,  so we call these murderers "crazy".

Sometimes they are,  but Stalin wasn't crazy and neither was Mao.

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[BlueStarLizzard]

The problem with "crazy" is it discounts "evil."

There are evil people and evil ideologies.  We want to pretend otherwise,  so we call these murderers "crazy".

Sometimes they are,  but Stalin wasn't crazy and neither was Mao.

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You don't think choosing to be evil isn't crazy? I do.

Again, I don't think that it is a reason to excuse them, but I don't think those people are an example of sanity either.

[Ron]

You don't think choosing to be evil isn't crazy? I do.

Again, I don't think that it is a reason to excuse them, but I don't think those people are an example of sanity either.

Few evil people think they are choosing evil.

They've convinced themselves they are choosing good, they think they are standing up for truth or their rights.

[BlueStarLizzard]

Few evil people think they are choosing evil.

They've convinced themselves they are choosing good, they think they are standing up for truth or their rights.

I don't disagree. I still think they are crazy.

[seeker_two]

Few evil people think they are choosing evil.

They've convinced themselves they are choosing good, they think they are standing up for truth or their rights.

And most people like that consider themselves answerable to no power above them. People who don't hold themselves accountable to a higher power/standard than themselves make me nervous....

[Perd Hapley]

And most people like that consider themselves answerable to no power above them. People who don't hold themselves accountable to a higher power/standard than themselves make me nervous....

Except for those who believe they answer to the State, the Party, the Directory, the Revolution, the People, God, etc.