Should they be an American

[lupinus]

So sparked on by a recent news story on FoxNews a question came to my mind, first the back story.

I can't find any online links to the story so I'll sumerize.  A pregnant Mexican woman was on a flight from Mexico into the United States (forget the exact departure and destination cities)  While on the flight she gave birth and some are calling for the baby to be an American citizen since its supposed to be if you are born in the US you are a US citizen.  Ok thats it in short.

The question really isn't to the specific baby, its just what got the question in my mind.

The question is should a baby born on US soil be considered an American citizen if its parents are not themselves Americans?

[wingnutx]

I'd prefer that they would not automatically be citizens, but it is defintely set up that way.

New Zealand recent got rid of "anchor babies"

[lupinus]

My personal take is no, they should not unless certian conditions are met.

If you yourself are not an American citizen and give birth in the US for your baby to be a US citizen you should have to be here legally, intend to stay, and show proof you were yourself seeking US membership either by having activly tried or showing proof you were preparing to apply to it (learning the various things and working up to the requierments etc)

If you are here illegaly, just visiting with no intention of staying, etc your baby should not IMO be a US citizen.

[Perd Hapley]

Citizenship should be inherited and not dependent on place-of-birth.  How many other nations grant citizenship by birth, as we do?

[Vodka7]

I don't know what more of a claim you need to be an American than actually being born in America.  This is not something that needs to be changed.

[Perd Hapley]

I don't know what more of a claim you need to be an American than actually being born in America.

  What is so profoundly American about being born in America?  Big deal.  If two American citizens have a child while visiting Germany, is the child automatically German?  Should he be? 

[crt360]

So how do you get back to your parents' country of origin?

Say mom takes off from her home country of Albagonia, flies over Salmonelia (a country which grants citizenship by birth) where she pops out a kid, on the way to her vacation destination of Castlevania (a country with no visa/passport requirements or immigration policy).  After a brief, but nice, vacation with new kid in Castlevania, mom returns to Albagonia (a country with strict immigration control and papers required for entry/re-entry) now with another person in tow.  Since the kid is technically a citizen of Salmonelia (according to Salmonelian law), what will Albagonia's position be?  Will they accept him and permit his dual citizenship?  Can they make him (or his mother) renounce his right of Salmonelian citizenship?  Will they turn him away at the border?

What is the benefit to a country like the U.S. to have a policy of granting automatic citizenship to all who are born on (or above) it's soil?

[Fly320s]

I have no issue with the child being a US citizen, but his mom/dad should get no special attention.

[gunsmith]

One of the best things about my arguments with Euro folks when I
was over there was the fact that being born here means we accept you as an American.
Your parents can be illegal poor criminals and you can be President.
No Turk or Pakistani born in Germany or Belgium can make that claim.
They are always foreigners.

I say secure the borders, kick out the illegals. I generally agree with the minute men groups,
but if you're born here you're one of us.

[Perd Hapley]

One of the best things about my arguments with Euro folks when I
was over there was the fact that being born here means we accept you as an American.
Your parents can be illegal poor criminals and you can be President.

And that's a good thing?

[gunsmith]

Yes it's a good thing! it means you can be from the most humble of beginnings,
like Lincoln born in a log cabin.

I don't hold it against an infant if his dad is a criminal.

we have to fix the border problem now. Fence the border and deport illegals.
but if they are born here then they are Americans.

yup, a good thing for sure.

[BryanP]

"Should" doesn't really enter into it.

The 14th Amendment defines citizenship this way: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

It doesn't say anything about the status of your parents.  Under the current constitution the only question is whether you were born in the US.  Your mother could have hit the shores and given birth 5 minutes later. 

[Perd Hapley]

I don't hold it against an infant if his dad is a criminal.

Neither do I.  I don't hold it against his parents if they were Salvadoran, it just means that the child is also Salvadoran, or should be.  Most humble of beginnings, blah, blah, blah.  We have procedures for gaining citizenship and emerging from a birth canal shouldn't be one of them. 

[Ron]

I have no problem with the current arrangement IF the borders are secured.

An exemption stating that if the parents have broken our laws and are here illegally then the child is not a citizen would work also. If one parent is a citizen then the child would be a citizen.

[Desertdog]

If two American citizens have a child while visiting Germany, is the child automatically German?

Yes.  My first grand daughter was born in an Americn military hospital in Germany, to an American husband and wife.

My son said she would be a duel American/German citizen, and at 18 she can elect which country shw wants to be a citizen of. 

If she does not legally choose one country over the other, I do not know what her status will/would be; maybe duel citizenship?

[gunsmith]

I have no problem with the current arrangement IF the borders are secured.

An exemption stating that if the parents have broken our laws and are here illegally then the child is not a citizen would work also. If one parent is a citizen then the child would be a citizen

I would probably agree with that...I just wish they would do something besides ammnesty etc

[Ezekiel]

The question is should a baby born on US soil be considered an American citizen if its parents are not themselves Americans?

I believe that's the way it has worked since the Mayflower.  (Metaphorically: the system wasn't codified until 1776.)

Any ancestrally non-native citizen who opposes such "birth policy" is just like the guy who shows up unannounced at a party, drinks all the beer, and then reports that "too many were invited."

[doczinn]

I'd support a contitutional amendment stating that the mother must be here legally.

Nonetheless, she was not on US soil. She was not in the US.

[doczinn]

Any ancestrally non-native citizen who opposes such "birth policy" is just like the guy who shows up unannounced at a party, drinks all the beer, and then reports that "too many were invited."

Wrong again. It's like a guy who has an invitation to the party who tells someone who walked in the back door that they don't belong there, and to please leave.

[Cosmoline]

See the 14th Amendment.  The problem isn't babies being born here, but the fact that our federal overlords don't bother to stop their parents from coming over as they please.  In fact they ENCOURAGE the illegals to help prop up agribusiness and wal-mart.  Build a nice big fence, mine the border and the problem goes away.  There's no need to start putting babies in prison.  Put the traitor RINOS in prison before you do that.

[Vodka7]

Any ancestrally non-native citizen who opposes such "birth policy" is just like the guy who shows up unannounced at a party, drinks all the beer, and then reports that "too many were invited."

Wrong again. It's like a guy who has an invitation to the party who tells someone who walked in the back door that they don't belong there, and to please leave.

Native American, are you?  Or, able to provide papers showing each of your ancestors entered the country legally?

Thought so.

[Perd Hapley]

The question is should a baby born on US soil be considered an American citizen if its parents are not themselves Americans?

I believe that's the way it has worked since the Mayflower.  (Metaphorically: the system wasn't codified until 1776.)

I believe it was codified according to an interpretation of the fourteenth amendment, about one hundred years later.  In any case, the Mayflower was certainly not the first boatload of British to settle in the present-day U.S.  Remember Jamestown?  But you cannot compare white settlement to modern-day illegal immigration.  Did the various tribes or nations have immigration laws or well-defined borders?  If Europeans had wished to enter legally or become citizens, how would they have done so?  Our current immigration policy is far more welcoming than the "policies" of the native tribes in colonial days.  They could only lay claim to the land because they had fought for it.*  The Europeans did the same.  Having said that, neither side has a clean record in terms of warfare, enslavement, deceit, etc. 

*Sure, there were treaties and leagues among some tribes, but hadn't they come to that point after untold centuries of warfare?

Any ancestrally non-native citizen who opposes such "birth policy" is just like the guy who shows up unannounced at a party, drinks all the beer, and then reports that

Firstly, I'm not opposed to those kids becoming citizens - I'm not saying that "too many were invited."  I just think they need to do it like everyone else did: either your parents were citizens, or you go through the citizenship process yourself, as other citizens do.  The accident of birthplace is an absurd reason for citizenship. 

Secondly, let's not pretend that those already here have nothing to do with the prosperity we enjoy.  We didn't bring all the beer, but many of us have made our share.  Besides, there was no party before whites settled here.  Before "us" there was some freedom - there was also a great deal of warfare, slavery and general oppression.  There were vast natural resources - and an equal amount of poverty and poor living conditions.  There were beautiful forests and streams - there were also deserts and barren wastelands.  And how can I be less "native" than you?  My grandparents were born here, this is the only place I know.  Your ancestors pushed other people off of land they wanted, just the same as mine did.  What's the difference? 

[Dannyboy]

The accident of birthplace is an absurd reason for citizenship.

I really don't think I could say it any better.

[Ezekiel]

It's like a guy who has an invitation to the party who tells someone who walked in the back door that they don't belong there, and to please leave.

I don't recall invitations being issued. 

Besides, there was no party before whites settled here.

Wow.  Paging Mr. Gibson, Mr. Mel Gibson...

Your ancestors pushed other people off of land they wanted, just the same as mine did.

Cannot deny such.  I believe the comparison should involve scale, however.  (And, perhaps intent/result, over ~500 years.)

Going back to the initial thread query, at what point does the plane come under the jurisdiction of the United States?  Given birth policy as it stands, isn't that important?

[doczinn]

Wow.  Paging Mr. Gibson, Mr. Mel Gibson...

There you go again. Throwing that old race card when it's not even a little bit justified.

I believe the comparison should involve scale, however.

Why? Invasion is invasion. Theft is theft.Both were practiced on a very large scale by most, if not all tribes in North America. The only real difference is that we were better at it. We had better technology, so we made it stick.

Going back to the initial thread query, at what point does the plane come under the jurisdiction of the United States?  Given birth policy as it stands, isn't that important?

Immensely important. Since the "Point of Entry" is the customs inspection point, I'd put the time of entry as the time the person clears inspection. My wife flew over the border somewhere in Texas or Arizona, but "entered" the United States in Los Angeles some three hours later.

Of course, that raises the question of whether any illegal immigrant has "entered" the United States....