Author Topic: Materials science question for APS...  (Read 4363 times)

kgbsquirrel

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Materials science question for APS...
« on: December 11, 2016, 12:36:15 PM »
I'm looking for a material that fits the following criteria, I suspect probably a ceramic of some sort, but I'd like to get a second (and hopefully more exact) opinion on the matter.

Material must:

Be inert in a molten NaCl, molten post-transition metal, and/or molten alkaline metal environment.
Be nonconductive.
Be dimensionally stable across the specified temperature range.

Quiescent temp: -50° to +125°F
Operating temp: +1,500° to +1,700°F
Tne ( =D ): +1,900°F


(I really do love the malleable nature of forum threads.)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 01:20:09 PM by kgbsquirrel »

zahc

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Re: Materials science question for APS...
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2016, 12:41:05 PM »
quartz or SiC or graphite
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zxcvbob

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Re: Materials science question for APS...
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2016, 12:44:35 PM »
You going to try to make sodium metal by electrolysis?

Depends how long it needs to be stable, and will you be applying heat?  First thing that comes to mind is wood.  ;/  (seriously, it will hold up for a while, and it won't fail suddenly)

How about PyroCeram?  (old Corningware) or borosilicate glass?  Borosilicate glass will soften at some point (it doesn't really melt), but I think it's usable to about 1300F or so.
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Materials science question for APS...
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2016, 01:01:48 PM »
Crap, forgot a very important criteria!

I am not attempting to make sodium metal. Needs to remain stable on a protracted time scale.

230RN

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Re: Materials science question for APS...
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2016, 01:02:07 PM »
Seems to me we used to use ordinary laboratory porcelain crucibles for pyrolysis at those temps.  And even higher.

1000°F is just getting into the dull red range.  Comparison: a burning cigarette is about 1100°F if I recall correctly.  MP of sodium chloride is around 1500°F.

What do you mean by "dimensionally stable?"  Porcelain's linear expansion coefficient is 3.6 X 10-6, less than half of most stainless steels.

So whatcha up to?  You casting copper bullets or sumthin'?  It would be helpful to know, and if it's proprietary, you can PM me and I'll keep your seekrits.
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Materials science question for APS...
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2016, 01:05:29 PM »
Seems to me we used to use ordinary laboratory porcelain crucibles for pyrolysis at those temps.

1000°F is just getting into the dull red range.  Comparison: a cigarette is about 1100°F if I recall correctly.  MP of sodium chloride is around 1500°F.

So whatcha up to?

*checks his paper notes* Nuts, I typo'd myself, thanks for that catch.

Let me go check some other stuff to make sure I didn't make any more...

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Materials science question for APS...
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2016, 01:19:28 PM »
Okay, I fixed my OP.

230RN

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Re: Materials science question for APS...
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2016, 01:26:53 PM »
"must be nonconductive"

Eliminates charred wood, stainless steel, and graphite.

Added to my own previous post  --you might not have seen it:

Quote
So whatcha up to?  You casting copper bullets or sumthin'?  It would be helpful to know, and if it's proprietary, you can PM me and I'll keep your seekrits.
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Materials science question for APS...
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2016, 01:34:05 PM »
"must be nonconductive"

Eliminates charred wood, stainless steel, and graphite.

Added to my own previous post  --you might not have seen it:


Well I sent you a PM.  ;)

230RN

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Re: Materials science question for APS...
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2016, 02:31:55 PM »
You might try contacting Coors Porcelain division here in Golden Colorado. They make more than beer out here.
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

HankB

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Re: Materials science question for APS...
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2016, 03:02:45 PM »
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
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KD5NRH

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Re: Materials science question for APS...
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2016, 03:35:40 PM »
Try stupidity.

Low chance of success, but it's plentiful, and tossing imbeciles into molten salt is always worth a try.

zxcvbob

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Re: Materials science question for APS...
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2016, 04:12:02 PM »
You haven't said a size yet...

You're just beyond what pyroceram can handle.

You need some kind of refractory.  Firebricks would work.  There's also castable refractory (looks like portland cement mixed with vermiculite) that would probably work if you bring the temperature up slowly the first time.
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Materials science question for APS...
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2016, 05:06:52 PM »
About thermos sized for an initial test article.

never_retreat

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Re: Materials science question for APS...
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2016, 10:18:02 PM »
Working on the product line?

I needed a mod to change my signature because the concept of "family friendly" eludes me.
Just noticed that a mod changed my signature. How long ago was that?
A few months-mods

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Materials science question for APS...
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2016, 03:20:11 AM »
Working on the product line?



I suppose it could be as lucrative. I suppose this wouldn't hurt: I'm sketching out some ideas for a proof of concept molten metal battery.

Fly320s

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Re: Materials science question for APS...
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2016, 06:29:14 AM »
Just take a regular battery and overcharge it.  I hear you can get the Samsung Note 7 batteries pretty cheap.  =D

Or just get a regular Boeing 787 battery.
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

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KD5NRH

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Re: Materials science question for APS...
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2016, 03:36:36 PM »
So you're still not tossing Hillary voters into molten salt?

I mean, come on; even if it delays the rest of the project, the YouTube ad revenue alone could pay for someone to do whatever you're wanting to do.

230RN

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Re: Materials science question for APS...
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2016, 04:53:19 PM »
Well, hey, mercury's molten at ordinary temps.  Wood's metal melts below BP of water (at STP).

But hey, I read somewhere that in general, electrical resistance increases with temperature.

So, without fully understanding it, are they just trying to eliminate battery polarization because of the mechanical mobility of the molten metals?

Also, what about the NRG required to keep the stuff molten.  Is that included in the energy budget?

Interesting, though.
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Materials science question for APS...
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2016, 10:39:03 PM »
So you're still not tossing Hillary voters into molten salt?

I mean, come on; even if it delays the rest of the project, the YouTube ad revenue alone could pay for someone to do whatever you're wanting to do.

Screaming-Alpha class fire.  >:D

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Materials science question for APS...
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2016, 10:54:12 PM »
Well, hey, mercury's molten at ordinary temps.  Wood's metal melts below BP of water (at STP).

But hey, I read somewhere that in general, electrical resistance increases with temperature.

So, without fully understanding it, are they just trying to eliminate battery polarization because of the mechanical mobility of the molten metals?

Also, what about the NRG required to keep the stuff molten.  Is that included in the energy budget?

Interesting, though.

More like trying to eliminate the mechanical breakdown of most rechargeable batteries by liquefying the materials thus obviating issues like material anode cracking and electrolyte loss to solid material formations, crystalization etc. Another major intent is to take a significant problem, thermal runaway, and instead turn it around into something useful/desired.

There are a few ways to achieve the initial molten state but for my initial test article I think I will be using an induction coil.

I'm starting to seriously consider prototyping this thing rather than keeping it my usual mental project.

Stage 1: Paper and mind. (Free.)
Stage 2: Test crucible to see if the desired battery chemistry is even feasible. (Cheap'ish.)
Stage 3: Experimental test article. (Expensive.)
Stage 4: Instrumented prototype. (Very expensive.)
Stage 5: Production model. (Pricey.)

I think if S1 doesn't reveal any show stoppers I will continue on through S2 on my own dime, and then if things look good I may hit up some of my more entrepreneurial family members.


Fly320s

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Re: Materials science question for APS...
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2016, 06:27:37 AM »
My science knowledge is limited to making coffee, so humor me here.

What can you do with a molten battery?  You can't install it an anything.  And it won't stay molten very long.
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Materials science question for APS...
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2016, 07:40:55 AM »
My science knowledge is limited to making coffee, so humor me here.

What can you do with a molten battery?  You can't install it an anything.  And it won't stay molten very long.

 >:D

230RN

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Re: Materials science question for APS...
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2016, 11:53:11 AM »
My science knowledge is limited to making coffee, so humor me here.

What can you do with a molten battery?  You can't install it an anything.  And it won't stay molten very long.
I was thinking it might be suitable for in situ storage use for alternative energy sites, as in large power facilities or "off the grid" homesteads.

It might not be necessary to keep it molten all the time, just fire it up when the alternative energy source starts to decline.  As in when the rain starts or the wind stops.

I gotta look into it some more.

Terry
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.